The Leaf Powering our homes

[mksE55]

Just saw the interesting article on the nissan owners page about how Nissan would like to be able to use the Leaf for emergency backup. any news on this from anyone. http://nissanleafforum.com/leaf_power_residence.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wonder what is all needed and the cost for this. Down here in TX we have alot of bad weather days and it would be nice to let the Leaf be a giant battery backup. I have heard other talk about this but never from Nissan

 

[adric22]

All I can offer is my opinion.. It is a bad idea. Think about it. The power is out. Lets say it goes out for a week. Well, after a day or so, your Leaf is now dead. You are still without power and worse, you can't drive anywhere either. At least with a gasoline powered generator, you can always take the car and go find some more gasoline and maybe even charge up your leaf if need be.

That being said. I think a Hybrid vehicle, such as a Prius, makes an excellent generator. I have heard of some home-brew projects to tap off of the high-voltage system to run an inverter. I think it can only pull a certain amount of power before the car will give off some kind of code and shut down, though. A small change in software could prevent this. I'm surprised Toyota has never made an effort to capitalize on the fact that the car is capable of producing quite a lot of power for situations like this.

 

[tps]

This idea might be OK as a means to transport power. Let's say your home power is out, but you can charge at work. One could pick up some power at the office and use it when they got home.

 

[MikeD]

1) You conserve your house's electricity use so you don't drain the Leaf's battery in only a couple of days.
2) You drive your Leaf to a QC (we are talking for the future when public QCs should be plentiful) when its charge gets low.
3) The Leaf's portability allows the possibility of helping neighbors as well at times.

 

[aedanna]

All I can offer is my opinion.. It is a bad idea. Think about it. The power is out. Lets say it goes out for a week. Well, after a day or so, your Leaf is now dead. You are still without power and worse, you can't drive anywhere either. At least with a gasoline powered generator, you can always take the car and go find some more gasoline and maybe even charge up your leaf if need be.

I live 12 miles from work, so I could easily charge up during the day and come home and power my home in a power outage. I lived through the ice storm in 1998 in New England, the longest I heard of anyone without power was 30 days, I was out for 8. I could have easily kept my house powered while I was home if I had a setup like this. (I now live in Raleigh)

What about not just using your Leaf for battery backup, but as a energy storage? Imagine if you have photo-voltaic panels and/or a wind generator, the car could be your energy storage device. At night when there is no sun or wind you could pull power from the Leaf. There is an argument for needing some power when you are not home, but usually when I am not home I am using very little power, so the I would require fewer permanent batteries for storage. I agree that having a car that has the ability to generate electricity would be advantageous. Ideally, I would have one all electric car and one hybrid. My wife and I would switch cars depending on our driving needs.

I understand that would most likely void any warranty, but after 100K miles there is no warranty. Nissan and ABB are researching reuse of Leaf batteries after they are removed from the car. They could use them in industries as a battery backup solution. I would prefer a solution where I can add them to a home battery backup system. Over time as the car ages and I need to replace batteries my home backup would grow as I replace batteries. It would also create a huge incentive to buy another electric Nissan vehicle.

Nissan and ABB research article:
http://green.autoblog.com/2012/01/1...reement-to-test-used-ev-batteries-for-energy/

 

[CWO4Mann]

All of these ideas have too many nuts and bolts to them that can come unscrewed. Meaning that they require some complex planning and physical modifications. Just buy a natural gas fueled generator which pushes about 5KW for about $500. I've mentioned elsewhere herein that natural gas generators are the least expensive to operate, then propane fuel, then diesel, then gasoline. In serious times when "TSHTF" the natural gas supply will eventually peter out as the local utility pumping stations are overrun, destroyed, or otherwise put out of action (they are electric pumps with backup gensets). The ideal backup is a set of solar panels and storage batteries with devices which operate on 13.8 volts so as to avoid losses caused by the 13.8 vdc to 120vac inverter. I would rather be in a position to have a generator which could recharge the Leaf, than the other way around. Furthermore, carrying a dual-fuel genset (gasoline and propane) on a small trailer behind the LEAF would allow you to charge along the way using bartered-for fuel. When TSHTF and you have to Bug Out, I figure one box of .22 hollow points might just buy a gallon of gas or diesel while you are On The Road to your Safe Place. YMMV.

 

[linkim]

What about not just using your Leaf for battery backup, but as a energy storage? Imagine if you have photo-voltaic panels and/or a wind generator, the car could be your energy storage device. At night when there is no sun or wind you could pull power from the Leaf. There is an argument for needing some power when you are not home, but usually when I am not home I am using very little power, so the I would require fewer permanent batteries for storage. I agree that having a car that has the ability to generate electricity would be advantageous.

IMO, using a functioning LEAF EV battery for energy storage is an expensive proposition. The Li-ion battery is the most expensive component in the LEAF, and there are less costly batteries available for energy storage, including other lower cost Li-ion batteries not made for transportation applications. There is also the issue with timing. That is, when PV solar (daytime) or wind is available, the LEAF owner may be away with the vehicle so the full generating capacity (electrical energy) cannot be captured and stored. However, the concept proposed by Nissan and others to explore “second life” use of Li-ion batteries makes more practical sense. When the LEAF battery has reached the end of its useful life (less than about 80% capacity) in the vehicle, it is still useful for stationary applications. The cost of the spent battery will be much less than one in the EV.

Perhaps as emergency backup, having the battery in the LEAF available is a viable option. But as others have pointed out, there are many other options for backup generation of electricity.

 

[smkettner]

For the price I think some solar and small stationary battery system would be better.
I just need enough power in my Leaf to get my RV out of storage anyway.

 

[BRBarian]

I'd love to have a 3000W inverter in the trunk. Something like the Prosine 3.0 would only add about 30 lbs of weight, and could be used power stuff nearly anywhere, including much of the house.

 

[LakeLeaf]

It's a great idea, but Nissan would have to be convinced there is a significant benefit to them to allow a reverse charge from the battery (which has nothing to do with driving a car) to do the engineering and warranty the car to allow this to happen.

Me thinks the chances of this are - well - slim and none - despite how beneficial it could be.

 

[Herm]

It would be ok for occasional emergency use.. you have about full 1500 cycles worth of life in the battery and you can afford the few you will need.

Its more efficient to use a generator full out (preferably 240V) to charge the Leaf, and then use the Leaf as needed during the day with small intermittent loads around the house. A fridge or freezer wont consume much power as long as you keep the door closed.. the blower in a heating furnace, small fluorescent lights, well pumps, laptops.. even large LED televisions. Eventually Nissan will offer this option and it will prove extremely popular in many parts of the country.

GM can also offer this with the Volt, with the advantage of a portable 50kva generator and built-in 10 gallon fuel tank.

UQM has talked of offering a 5kw inverter using 400VDC directly out of the battery.

http://www.uqm.com/additional%20products.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[lpickup]

It's a great idea, but Nissan would have to be convinced there is a significant benefit to them to allow a reverse charge from the battery (which has nothing to do with driving a car) to do the engineering and warranty the car to allow this to happen.

Me thinks the chances of this are - well - slim and none - despite how beneficial it could be.

Except that Nissan has ALREADY been convinced (thanks very much to the tsunami and power outages that followed) and is rolling out this capability in Japan. Here's another thread on the topic (with links to the Nissan web site):

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6619

 

[LakeLeaf]

Except that Nissan has ALREADY been convinced (thanks very much to the tsunami and power outages that followed) and is rolling out this capability in Japan. Here's another thread on the topic (with links to the Nissan web site):

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6619

Thanks for that link. I didn't notice where it said V2H was being rolled out, but I may have missed it - or it may be in another article.

The biggest benefit I see for this is still somewhat down the line. As the battery capacity improves we may reach a point where the cars will have lots of excess capability, you will be able to charge at night at cheap rates and resell power to the grid during peak demand periods at a profit. The power companies like the idea as they are interested in trying to level out their demand curves. It's more economical for them to use their most efficient plants and not have to bring older, less efficient plants on board to meet peak demand.

I'll keep and eye out to see if/when Nissan actually rolls this out in Japan.

 

[Ingineer]

FYI if anyone here wants an official CHAdeMO connector/cable for V2G/V2H experimentation, I've got one for sale. I'd love to see a group go in on it for experimentation! =)

-Phil

 

[mksE55]

All good points but I am being more realistic. most power outages are for hours not days. You maybe able to drive somewhere and charge up, then come home to use it. also you may charge on generator during the day, but can use nice and quite electricity at night . also you would at least have some electricity for hot water if you needed to go to work and lost power at your house or charge you cell phone to call for help. or use the radio or TV to find out TSHTF and how to get out of there Leaf or not. I dont think they area saying if you have a leaf you dont need a generator . More like Hey Dummy you have a Leaf and could have 21kw of stored energy at your finger tips if you need. keep the pluses and minuses coming.

 

[MikeD]

Ingineer: So are the two large power wires in your CHAdeMO cable 2AWG copper stranded or are they otherwise? Do you happen to know the wire used in the Leaf's CHAdeMO receptacle corresponding to those two wires?

 

[Ingineer]

They are bigger than #4. They aren't labelled, but they look like at least #2 with about a million strands. Definitely extremely high-quality cable.

-Phil

 

[etrans]

A 15A/120VAC inverter powered outlet inside the Leaf would have been a good value added feature for convenience and emergencies but I'm sure the liability issue killed that idea.