Those precious batteries are scarce!

[Smidge204]

In your mind, which word indicated any problem?
Perhaps my unusual use of "the", or "on"? :lol:

The ellipsis, actually

=Smidge=

 

[ttweed]

Also relevant: Molycorp reopens their rare-earth mine in California.

Just as a sidelight to this discussion, Molycorp stock rose 15% today on an analyst's upgrade based on their rare earth mining and joint venture with Hitachi to manufacture magnets.

TT

 

[TRONZ]

Also relevant: Molycorp reopens their rare-earth mine in California.

Just as a sidelight to this discussion, Molycorp stock rose 15% today on an analyst's upgrade based on their rare earth mining and joint venture with Hitachi to manufacture magnets.

TT

Nice! Its always good when a company put skin into the EV game.

 

[JPVLeaf]

[For folks in Southern California w/ access to public television station, KCET .... ]

Speaking of Molycorp (and rare earth metal mining), the company is included in the first segment of an episode of SoCal Connected, "Rare Earths & Electric Cars." The episode originally aired yesterday, 1/27/11, but will re-air tonight through Sunday.

Fri, Jan 28, 2011 @ 8:30 PM, KCET
Sat, Jan 29, 2011 @ 6:00 PM, KCET
Sun, Jan 30, 2011 @ 6:30 PM, KCET

You can see a preview here:
http://www.kcet.org/shows/socal_connected/socal-connected-33.html

 

[garygid]

Thanks, I set it to record on Sunday.

 

[TRONZ]

Looks like the Japanese have found something:

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2011-07/04/rare-earth-elements-in-seabed

http://m.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/07/rare-earths-discovery-wont-solve-us-china-tensions/241436/

"Japanese scientists say they have discovered 100 billion tons of rare earth minerals, about 1,000 times the rest of the known global supply, on the Pacific floor."

Unfortunately the materials are spread on the ocean floor in 10K-20k feet of water (but in relative abundance). Extraction from the sea floor mud is simple if they can get it to the surface economically. In the end, good news for EV's.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

nice!! whats a little water anyway??

 

[keydiver]

Well, that's one more thing we can take off the naysayer's list for EV's: no rare earth elements needed:
http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=32071;s=042320151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[mbender]

Well, that's one more thing we can take off the naysayer's list for EV's: no rare earth elements needed:
http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=32071;s=042320151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know enough about what kinds of motors are used in all EVs, but do some or many require rare earth elements? I thought that Tesla at least used an induction motor which does not require any.

The motor sub-team of the project, led by Siemens, immediately discounted induction motors due to limitations in their design and set about investigating alternatives to rare earth permanent magnets in synchronous motors.

Maybe though a lot of EV motors are brushless DC motors, which do require rare earths:

in[/i] above article "]Rare earth metals produce powerful and reliable permanent magnets, which is why they are used by almost every major hybrid and electric vehicle manufacturer today,

ps. Nice find and resurrection of a 4-year-old thread! ;-)

 

[keydiver]

I was trying to find an older, yet appropriate thread, instead of starting a new one. Yes, if I recall Tesla doesn't, but I believe the Leaf does, as do most EV's. A more efficient induction motor with no rare earth elements should shut up some of the anti-EV crowd, at least on this point. And who knows, even Tesla might benefit in the long run.

 

[alanlarson]

Despite their name, rare earths are not rare. If you want some articles on it, go to google and enter
"rare earths are not rare" (include the quotes).

 

[keydiver]

You and I know that, but the anti-EV crowd acts like they are a very finite resource, mostly owned by China, which makes electric cars expensive and impractical. :roll: An induction motor with no rare earth elements is step in the right direction, as it is one less argument we need to hear.

 

[RegGuheert]

Well, that's one more thing we can take off the naysayer's list for EV's: no rare earth elements needed:
http://www.powerpulse.net/story.php?storyID=32071;s=042320151" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for the link! Very interesting!

A more efficient induction motor with no rare earth elements should shut up some of the anti-EV crowd, at least on this point..

An induction motor with no rare earth elements is step in the right direction, as it is one less argument we need to hear.

The article you linked does not describe an induction motor: those already do not include rare-earth metals. Instead, it describes efforts to develop a high-performance synchronous machine which does not include any rare-earth metals:

The motor sub-team of the project, led by Siemens, immediately discounted induction motors due to limitations in their design and set about investigating alternatives to rare earth permanent magnets in synchronous motors.

While Tesla EVs use induction machines, most other EVs, like the LEAF, use synchronous machines.

In addition to being more efficient than induction machines, synchronous machines are apparently easier and cheaper to wind:

For example, the simpler single tooth winding, which can be applied to synchronous motors, requires less wire and the manufacturing process is easier to automate since each tooth can be wound in an identical fashion and pieced together later. In the manufacture of induction motors, however, the iron ring of the stator must be produced whole with complex windings distributed around multiple lamination teeth.

It appears they are using ferrite-based magnets instead of rare-earth magnets:

“Our results showed that ferrite-based magnets, although inferior to rare earth magnets, could still achieve the same or even better power density than in induction motors but with the other benefits that synchronous motors can offer,” Dr. Burkhart says.

This seems similar to Nissan's efforts in the redesign of the LEAF motor in 2013 in which they reduced the amount of rare-earth material by more than half, but still managed to achieve similar performance.

 

[AndyH]

You and I know that, but the anti-EV crowd acts like they are a very finite resource, mostly owned by China, which makes electric cars expensive and impractical. :roll: An induction motor with no rare earth elements is step in the right direction, as it is one less argument we need to hear.

I hope we don't continue down this path towards the 'lowest common denominator' side of the spectrum. That's a really, really small box.

 

[keydiver]

This seems similar to Nissan's efforts in the redesign of the LEAF motor in 2013 in which they reduced the amount of rare-earth material by more than half, but still managed to achieve similar performance.

According to Popular Mechanics it was a 40% reduction:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a8414/nissans-new-electric-motor-cuts-rare-earths-by-40-percent-14762001/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RegGuheert]

According to Popular Mechanics it was a 40% reduction:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a8414/nissans-new-electric-motor-cuts-rare-earths-by-40-percent-14762001/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

O.K. Thanks for the correction!

 

[RegGuheert]

It looks like GM managed to move one of the two electric machines in the second generation Volt from NdFeB to ferrite magnets:

Electric machines. In the first-generation Voltec system, both motors used NdFeB magnets. In the second generation, to optimize the EV range of the system, motor A was designed with a Ferrite magnet rotor while motor B was designed with an NdFeB magnet rotor. The Gen 2 system transmits most power through motor B under typical driving conditions, while motor A is used to augment power at high loads. Each motor design was optimized to match its distribution of operating points.

So these ferrite-magnet synchronous machines will be hitting the streets very soon!