Traction Battery Death

[hill]

Eventually it WILL happen . . . only we're already trained to call it "Capacity Loss". At some point, it's too much . . . . and we'll need a new pack. With all the talk of Arizona owners' capacity loss, one may start thinking, "What's my traction pack's scrap value worth". Nissan talks about that pack's 100% recycle-ability, and that's great. But heck - I take 30lbs-40lbs of crushed aluminum soda cans, and I walk away with a nice chunk o change. What about spent lithium packs? Anything? Nothing? There's not even a deposit on them? Would I be better off keeping them? Seems they'd still make a nice aux back up to run my PV solar during a power outage. I've already figured out how to disconnect our grid tied system and spoof our PV inverters into thinking they're still grid tied. That way, during a power outage, we're good to go. If a spent Leaf pack can be effectively charged - once it's 'spent' ... and out of the car ... maybe owners can find more uses, rather than potentially giving away something for nothing. Or am I wrong in thinking there's some value that's just scheduled to some day be given away for nothing. Several RAV4-EV owners have had packs 'reconditioned' successfully (partly because it IS do-able, and partly because the Panasonic large format nickel cells are no longer in production) ... and although theirs' is a different chemistry ... it makes me wonder if it'd be possible with lithium ... or to what extent at least.

.

 

[Stoaty]

Poor choice of topic title. How about changing it to something that indicates what the thread is about, like "Recycling Traction Batteries When Capacity Too Low"?

 

[hill]

(sigh) . . . . gee thanks for the helpful thought . . . here's to hoping the next post won't be focused on grammar, syntax, and/or sentence structure

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

your pack should be highly recyclable but guessing that even Nissan wont do it until SOC reaches into the 40% range so your pack will have a few stopovers on its way to the recycling station.

as far as PV backup, that is a great idea. even a 70% SOC leaves nearly 17 kWH capacity which is enough to power everything in my home for a day. power essentials (fridge, freezer) for 3 days or more.

 

[thankyouOB]

(sigh) . . . . gee thanks for the helpful thought . . . here's to hoping the next post won't be focused on grammar, syntax, and/or sentence structure

what's the point of not communicating what you are trying to say?
the headline is key, but even a few paragraph breaks would make your entry more accessible.

 

[walterbays]

I'd guess the highest trade-in value on an old battery would be to someone like Nissan who will be in the business of selling reconditioned batteries. They might reuse many of the cells and extract the lithium from those cells too far gone, or for some packs using all the cells in stationary industrial applications. I'd also guess that other companies will also be in the business of reconditioning and reselling battery packs, some will offer a lower "out the door" trade-up price than Nissan to swap your old pack for a reconditioned one, and it will be up to us to weigh prices, warranties, and reputations.

(PS - a sensational thread title may get more people to read the thread, but a descriptive thread title gets more people to read it who are actually interested in the topic. Which shows I've never been a newspaper writer.

 

[Stoaty]

(sigh) . . . . gee thanks for the helpful thought . . . here's to hoping the next post won't be focused on grammar, syntax, and/or sentence structure

The title as written suggests that someones traction battery died, which is not the topic of the thread at all. My opinion is that it would help others find the proper thread if the title is appropriately descriptive. Just my opinion.

 

[camasleaf]

I've already figured out how to disconnect our grid tied system and spoof our PV inverters into thinking they're still grid tied. That way, during a power outage, we're good to go.

That is something I am very interested in, can you give us some insights? It is the only reason I did not install solar panels.

Electricity here is too cheap, clean, and ... reliable until now. But after I have seen 80 year old breakers still in service for 70MW generators at a hydro powerhouse, I realized it is just a matter of when is not going to be reliable any more. Plus, the end of the world is coming. With solar panels off the grid and the Leaf I will be the last in my neighborhood to die :lol: .

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

1) the title sucks ok? get over it. 3 opinions on that should be MORE than enough...

2) its not financially feasible to recycle batteries after they have lost 30% of their charge. in ALL other applications besides cars, the thought would still be several "%" away.

Nissan has already suggested that they would use them in a storage application where size and weight did not matter. home solar, business UPS apps, emergency backup for vital services, etc. well, not sure about the last one since that would require a high ready state SOC... but you get the point.

as for me, it all depends on how much Nissan is selling replacement packs but unless i get a few thousand for my old one, i will probably keep it and find something to do with it.

i live in an area where power outages happen pretty much annually and considering the rapidly changing weather patterns, guessing those events will increase as well

 

[KJD]

1) the title sucks ok? get over it. 3 opinions on that should be MORE than enough...

Make that 4 opinions.....

 

[Valdemar]

Poor choice of topic title. How about changing it to something that indicates what the thread is about, like "Recycling Traction Batteries When Capacity Too Low"?

He-he, I rushed here to congratulate the OP on a new replacement battery but it turned out to be a recycling thread.

On the subject, I did come across an article some time back, the main point it was trying to make was that with today's technology the value of useful materials that can be extracted from a Li-Ion battery is not enough to compensate for the cost of recycling, so those who turn their battery in for recycling would be expected to pay an additional fee, or it is cheaper to just send spent batteries to landfill. Hopefully with advances in recycling technology this won't be the case when my battery is up for replacement.

 

[kubel]

I came in here thinking someone got electrocuted or something. XD

 

[hill]

That is something I am very interested in, can you give us some insights? It is the only reason I did not install solar panels.

Electricity here is too cheap, clean, and ... reliable until now. But after I have seen 80 year old breakers still in service for 70MW generators at a hydro powerhouse, I realized it is just a matter of when is not going to be reliable any more. Plus, the end of the world is coming. With solar panels off the grid and the Leaf I will be the last in my neighborhood to die :lol: .

I use s "Square-D" interlocking plate designed to assure our 225 main disconnect is off. When the main is in "Off" (effectively disconnecting from the grid) the interlock plate slides down, which locks the main off. That same plate, while locking the main off, allows a back-feed breaker to be turned on (disallowing the main to be "on"). The back-feed breaker is locked out, except when the interlock plate slides down to lock the main "off". We have a grid quality sin wave generator/inverter. Once that power source is back-fed onto our panel, our PV sees the "grid quality" power ... and spoofed into thinking there's grid power, our PV inverters go through their typical 5 minute start up process ... and viola . . . . the inverter power throttles down to virtually nil ... unless the PV inverter power (7.1kW max) can't meet the demand that we're requiring of it.

what's the point of not communicating what you are trying to say?
the headline is key, but even a few paragraph breaks would make your entry more accessible.

I love grammar Nazzi's - only one thing I can say:

Andrew Jackson Quote:
"It is a damn poor mind indeed which can't think of at least two ways to spell any word"
It goes for thread titles, punctuation, paragraph lengths etc, too.
Sorry . . . moment of weakness . . . I couldn't resist . . . but that too . . . shall remain. Anyway -
I'm reminded of when MNL member ericsf when he made a post about "411 voluntary recall" . . . . and how so many within the 36 pages of posts got their shorts in a bunch because it was a stretch in some folks minds to accept 411 as being valid word for the topic's title
:lol:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7861&hilit=411" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But . . . back to topic . . . it is strange that Nissan (who will likely benefit from traction pack returns) just assumes significantly depleted packs will just go back to them, with no thought at all on the part of leaf owners that there IS still value. And . . . seeing how quick some AZ folks may end up reaching that threshold - it seems like a good a time as any to give it some thought.

.

 

[Randy3]

I'm hoping someone like Phil will start a business refreshing our used batteries. I'm not sure how it could be done considering shipping weight, etc. but I'd think that battery reconditioning could become a viable business.

BTW, my most recent conversation with a prospective LEAF buyer got hung up over replacement battery cost. It made me think (again) that the battery is just another consumable. The prospective buyer's argument was that our not being able to calculate the cost of a replacement battery is the same as his not being able to calculate the cost of gasoline in the future. He had a point.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to batteries in the next several years.

 

[Nubo]

Why is it when someone makes a comment about written language, they are labelled "Nazis"?

Written language is how we are communicating. People are basing their choice of reading based on subject titles. So why not use a subject that is indicative of what you're trying to discuss? And why be offended if someone makes the suggestion?

I promise not to send storm troopers to enforce my opinion.

 

[cwerdna]

(sigh) . . . . gee thanks for the helpful thought . . . here's to hoping the next post won't be focused on grammar, syntax, and/or sentence structure

The title as written suggests that someones traction battery died, which is not the topic of the thread at all. My opinion is that it would help others find the proper thread if the title is appropriately descriptive. Just my opinion.

Yeah, perhaps it was intended to be attention grabbing, like headlines in the media.

I think a better title would be something along the lines of "traction battery: end of life solutions, recycling, re-purposing, etc."

 

[GRA]

I'm hoping someone like Phil will start a business refreshing our used batteries. I'm not sure how it could be done considering shipping weight, etc. but I'd think that battery reconditioning could become a viable business.

BTW, my most recent conversation with a prospective LEAF buyer got hung up over replacement battery cost. It made me think (again) that the battery is just another consumable. The prospective buyer's argument was that our not being able to calculate the cost of a replacement battery is the same as his not being able to calculate the cost of gasoline in the future. He had a point.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to batteries in the next several years.

That is of course the elephant in the room when it comes to TCO arguments. The technology is still too immature to predict with a high degree of accuracy when batteries will need replacement under a variety of conditions (cf. Phoenix) or what they will cost at that time, so any such calcs are essentially WAGs.

The sooner companies start offering battery leasing in the U.S., the sooner the consumer will be able to calculate TCO for themselves, shifting responsibility for determining battery longevity and replacement costs from the BEV owner to the battery provider, thus removing a huge amount of anxiety for the former. AIUI, according to Nissan they can't do it because the incentives require selling/leasing a complete, drivable vehicle (with a fully-functioning emission control system, which includes the battery) as a condition for receiving the tax credit. IMO, the sooner they start battery leasing the sooner they can drop the MSRP and give mainstream customers a monthly 'fuel' cost that they're more familiar with, instead of paying for the entire lifetime cost of energy storage up front.

 

[ENIAC]

I love grammar Nazzi's - only one thing I can say:

There's only one "z" in Nazi. Nice Pic BTW!

Actually I suspect when you need a new pack there will be a core charge, so you'll give them your old pack. Much like is done on 12V batteries, starters, etc.

 

[adric22]

Add me to the list of people who were deceived by the thread title. It should be changed.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

me personally, I think it's a fine title, given the overall situation ... with at least one owner down 3 bars already, death is simply a matter of interpretation. Maybe the title is a little ahead of the time curve, but not by much, IMHO... a loss of 30-40% makes the already limited car very limited. Apparently Nissan needs this kind of holding of the toes to the fire... if Nissan won't replace the batteries under warranty, then at least a few people are going to have to prepare to either junk the car or figure out what they are going to do with the old pack and how they are going to swing replacing it. somebody needs to go throw a bucket of cold water on the CEO and make sure he's awake.