Trying to figure out Power Curve

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garygid said:
For EV (using 1 "e" (edie) = 1 kWh of e-fuel):...
80 miles / 24 edie = 3.33 mpe
$0.333 per edie (kWh) / 3.33 = $0.10 per mile

I think we can expect an AC-to-DC efficiency (wall to battery) in the range of 0.85 to 0.9. The "tank" holds 24kWh but it probably takes 24/0.85 = 28kWh from the AC wall to fully recharge the DC battery.

Even neglecting battery losses, 90% efficiency for an AC to DC power supply (battery charger) is pretty good and not always simple to achieve.

So maybe it's $0.11 per mile instead. But the charging efficiency loss will be minor compared to the effect of driving style differences or even air conditioning usage.
 
DeaneG said:
garygid said:
For EV (using 1 "e" (edie) = 1 kWh of e-fuel):...
80 miles / 24 edie = 3.33 mpe
$0.333 per edie (kWh) / 3.33 = $0.10 per mile

I think we can expect an AC-to-DC efficiency (wall to battery) in the range of 0.85 to 0.9. The "tank" holds 24kWh but it probably takes 24/0.85 = 28kWh from the AC wall to fully recharge the DC battery.

I agree with DeaneG, there will be loss that I did not calculate in the AC-to-DC conversion. 15% seems reasonable. But 33.3 cents per kWh? Where are you? Hawaii? The average cost of electricity in the U.S. is 11.5 cents per kWh with a standard deviation of 2.8 cents per kWh for the period April 2009 to March 2010 -- the last month for which the DOE has numbers. (It's all explained in my Affordable Electric Car Now blog post). And as I commented, at least here in Virginia, where I use Dominion Virginia Power (NYSE:D), it costs only 7.033 cents per kWh in the summer, less in the other seasons. So by my measure, I'd be getting $0.0211 per mile without DeaneG's correction or $0.0246155 the AC-to-DC correction.
 
evnow said:
All the numbers we have ...

Thanks EVNow! Well, since you said numbers 6 and 7 are at constant speed, I think we have a result, but I don't believe it for a second: http://j.mp/bkD7k9

I calculated the second-degree polynomial from the constant items and came up with:

c = 0.013916692592468
b = -0.000301490621697
a = 0.000003314631471

So for a given velocity, v, your range would be:

1/(a*v**2 + b*v + c)

But, given these numbers -- remember the fixed speed for the 37/38 mph was an astonishing 137/138 miles, well above the expected 100 from LA4 -- I am dubious. If you use that equation for some other sample speeds, you get the incredible ranges of:

mph Range in mi
30 127.305141809851
45 141.608091835687
60 128.867165341732
70 110.447892625602

Most notable is the 45mph sweet spot, which for a ICE with Gear Box, is also a sweet spot, but for an EV, which is a single-gear system (typically) since the electric motor can rev to very high velocities, I seriously doubt 45 mph is a sweet spot. The Tesla's sweet spot is about 17 mph, for example:

display_data.php


Anyway, there's a link to my equations above if anyone wants to check my results. You can see that a number of other EVs have a similar peculiarity that the are still more efficient at 45 than under LA4. Of course, LA4 is more real world than 'constant speed of 45' but it's strange that even at 70 mph the LEAF is beating LA4, which I think is impossible.

Either way, I'll try to use this equation to do my best guess with EPA US06 (Aggressive Driving Schedule and maybe the HWFET at 10Hz).
 
evnow said:
May be something like w(dt) = av+b/v+c.

Oops, you're right; no, actually, not quite!

And now I see why I was right and wrong. I believe I am right with respect to p(v) = a*v**2 + b*v + c, but this is not the case for the per-mile range calculation!

In fact, the Inverse Distance Equation ide(v) -> 1/(max range) should be of the form ide(v) = a*v + b + c/v! Because, the Power curve can be calculated from the ide as follows:

P(v) = E * ide(v) * v -> a'*v**2 + b'*v + c'!

(where E is our beloved 24 kWh battery)

D'oh!

Well, I'll just have to redo the linear equations so they look like that distance curve on the Tesla site and not the 1 over a second-degree polynomial.

Get back to y'all later; watch the link to the Google Spreadsheet to see me fix it in real time. :)
 
Hmm.

Okay, I tried something different before jumping to the av + b + c/v curve. Instead, since for the c/v term I have to ensure that v=0 is not measured, I decided to rerun the EPA LA4 numbers with all the 0-velocities dropped (1111 samples vs. 1370 samples). Clearly, all things being equal, at rest an EV should be using 0 power (no a/c, no radio, etc.).

Having done this, I come up with:

c = 0.01775877625321
b = -0.000506438185392
a = 0.000006047265653

Thus, you have the following speculative results:

mph Range
70 83.7541632689781
60 109.377579995605
45 138.604540549967
30 124.872477426344

The sweet spot still appears at 45 though. As we only have 3 reliable samples (LA4, 37 and 38 mph, constant), I could not try a quadratic with an inverse term, but if it's linear and inverse, it should be doable.
 
TimeHorse said:
But 33.3 cents per kWh? Where are you? Hawaii? The average cost of electricity in the U.S. is 11.5 cents per kWh with a standard deviation of 2.8 cents per kWh ...

Funny thing is, standard deviations are not particularly useful in many cases. Pacific Gas & Electric territory in northern CA has a large population, an eco-mindset, and huge electricity rates. An unfortunate combination.
 
DeaneG said:
garygid said:
For EV (using 1 "e" (edie) = 1 kWh of e-fuel):...
80 miles / 24 edie = 3.33 mpe
$0.333 per edie (kWh) / 3.33 = $0.10 per mile

I think we can expect an AC-to-DC efficiency (wall to battery) in the range of 0.85 to 0.9. The "tank" holds 24kWh but it probably takes 24/0.85 = 28kWh from the AC wall to fully recharge the DC battery.

Even neglecting battery losses, 90% efficiency for an AC to DC power supply (battery charger) is pretty good and not always simple to achieve.

So maybe it's $0.11 per mile instead. But the charging efficiency loss will be minor compared to the effect of driving style differences or even air conditioning usage.


Manzanita Micro EV chargers are as much as 96% efficient. I would hope the leaf charger is better than 85%
 
DeaneG said:
TimeHorse said:
But 33.3 cents per kWh? Where are you? Hawaii? The average cost of electricity in the U.S. is 11.5 cents per kWh with a standard deviation of 2.8 cents per kWh ...

Funny thing is, standard deviations are not particularly useful in many cases. Pacific Gas & Electric territory in northern CA has a large population, an eco-mindset, and huge electricity rates. An unfortunate combination.


$.33 is easy to hit in CA, or higher.
 
TimeHorse said:
mph Range in mi
30 127.305141809851
45 141.608091835687
60 128.867165341732
70 110.447892625602

Most notable is the 45mph sweet spot, which for a ICE with Gear Box, is also a sweet spot, but for an EV, which is a single-gear system (typically) since the electric motor can rev to very high velocities, I seriously doubt 45 mph is a sweet spot. The Tesla's sweet spot is about 17 mph, for example:

My guess is Leaf's sweet spot is 37mph - and thats the reason why Nissan used that number.

Anyway, there's a link to my equations above if anyone wants to check my results. You can see that a number of other EVs have a similar peculiarity that the are still more efficient at 45 than under LA4. Of course, LA4 is more real world than 'constant speed of 45' but it's strange that even at 70 mph the LEAF is beating LA4, which I think is impossible.

I think it is more like 60 mph than 70mph. As you can see even EV1 beat LA4 numbers at high speed.

BTW, here is one more guy trying to reverse LA4 numbers ...

http://www.theeestory.com/topics/6031
 
EVDRIVER said:
DeaneG said:
TimeHorse said:
But 33.3 cents per kWh? Where are you? Hawaii? The average cost of electricity in the U.S. is 11.5 cents per kWh with a standard deviation of 2.8 cents per kWh ...
Funny thing is, standard deviations are not particularly useful in many cases. Pacific Gas & Electric territory in northern CA has a large population, an eco-mindset, and huge electricity rates. An unfortunate combination.
$.33 is easy to hit in CA, or higher.
Yep, it's pretty easy for the typical house to get into those kinds of rates. In fact, based on the average usage in CA (590 kWh/month), I'd expect just about nearly everyone to get those rates, especially after they add an EV to be charged daily.

Assuming that you drive 12k miles/year and that the Leaf uses an average of 4 kWh/mile, that will add 250 kWh/month to your electricity bill. Considering the baseline allowance for most people is around 300-350 kWh/month and the fact that typically electricity usage over 130% of your baseline gets charged at the higher rate which is double the baseline rate, you can see what that means.

In this type of situtation, you have these options:

1. Reduce your overall electricity consumption to avoid the top tiers (not usually possible unless you eliminate nearly all other electricity use or install a PV generating system)
2. Install a separate meter on a special EV-TOU plan and charge your car during off-peak hours.

SDGE has some useful information on their site:

http://www.sdge.com/environment/cleantransportation/evRates.shtml
http://www.sdge.com/documents/environment/pev-costchart.pdf
 
DeaneG said:
Funny thing is, standard deviations are not particularly useful in many cases. Pacific Gas & Electric territory in northern CA has a large population, an eco-mindset, and huge electricity rates. An unfortunate combination.

According to the DoE, in calendar year 2009, Californians spent $13,522,909,000 on electricity, used 89,881,600 MWh of electricity for an average cost of 15.05 cents per kWh, just a shade outside the first sigma standard deviation. I don't have the standard deviation of the electricity rates across California as the DoE does not keep those numbers. The s.d. is based on a weighted sum average of the total national electricity usage: total sales of electricity across all states / total electricity used by all states. The weighting I use is by Residential Sales (MWh) so that for instance Florida, which used 114,859,058 MWh of electricity in the same calendar year is actually weighed more than California at 90 TWh. Floridinians use Air Conditioning a lot more than you Californians. :) BTW, Texas in the same period used 128,976,360 MWh, and we Virginians used 44,706,680 MWh, about half of what was used in California even though our state is about 1/5 as populous as yours.

But for that same period, Hawaiians used only 3,055,242 MWh but spent $739,412,000, meaning that their AVERAGE price was 24.2 cents per kWh! So if in a state with an average cost, from San Diego to Fresno to Needles to Los Angeles to San Luis Obispo to San Jose to San Fransisco to Sacramento to Eureka of 15.5 cents per kWh where some of you are being hit with 33.3 cents per kWh, more than twice the state average, I shudder to think what some worst-case Hawaiians are paying! (As is laid out in my blog).

But even though I'm quite fortunate to be paying worst-case scenario of 7.033 cents per kWh (thanks in most part to W Va's vast coal reserves and the dirtying of my state with nasty, unclean coal), I also don't live in a state nearly as eco friendly as CA, making me quite jealous of you guys. The only Eco-friendly tax incentives my state gives to its residents is a consumption (sales) tax free weekend in October for all energy efficient appliances up to $5000. No PEV incentives, no solar-thermal incentives, no geo-thermal incentives. We did recently pass a bill to grant incentives to build more wind power generation and there's that poke-in-the-eye that says that anyone who bought a hybrid car before 2006 can use the HOV lanes when these new, fully electric cars get no such incentive! (See my penultimate post in the Affordable Electric Car Now blog for more details on that). And of course we don't get first pick of the LEAF litter like you guys do, so all in all, we each have our advantages.

As for charging times, remember the LEAF is supposed to allow you to program when it charges, so for those of you with Time of Day rates can just set it to start charging as soon as the rates go down.
 
.. but EV charging is not done at the average rate, it's done at the incremental (next kWh) rate, which is typically 33-42 cents for me in the summer.

Switching to a TOU rate (actually mandated by PG&E for EV charging) heavily penalizes ordinary daytime electricity consumption (for household air conditioning, for example). In my case it adds about $500 to my yearly electricity bill without even charging a car. I have to add this $500 per year, amortized over 8000 miles per year, to my actual incremental $/kWh to figure out what it's really costing me.

Without PV to help, the sum is about 13-15 cents per mile, twice the cost of a Prius on gasoline.
 
DeaneG said:
.. but EV charging is not done at the average rate, it's done at the incremental (next kWh) rate, which is typically 33-42 cents for me in the summer.
Ouch, does PG&E get that much higher than SDG&E? SDG&E maxes out around 35c/kWh.
DeaneG said:
Switching to a TOU rate (actually mandated by PG&E for EV charging) heavily penalizes ordinary daytime electricity consumption (for household air conditioning, for example).
You definitely want TOU on a separate meter just for charging your car.

DeaneG said:
Without PV to help, the sum is about 13-15 cents per mile, twice the cost of a Prius on gasoline.
PV is the other way to avoid the crazy California rates. BTW - your average car at mid 20s MPG is paying somewhere around 10-15 cents/mile so as long as you don't compare it to a Prius the Leaf at high electricity rates isn't too bad. It also makes me think that CA should raise the gas tax more and use the revenues to balance the budget and fund mass transportation / EV charging stations.
 
Can we move the utility rates to another thread ? Let me know what thread should I move it to ... (or a new thread).
 
DeaneG said:
Switching to a TOU rate (actually mandated by PG&E for EV charging)
You sure about that? Why they would mandate it is beyond me. SCE offers a TOU EV rate as well, but they don't mandate it. Anyway, they don't have to know. If that is the case, just don't tell PG&E that you're getting an EV. ;)
 
johnr said:
DeaneG said:
Switching to a TOU rate (actually mandated by PG&E for EV charging)
You sure about that? Why they would mandate it is beyond me. SCE offers a TOU EV rate as well, but they don't mandate it. Anyway, they don't have to know. If that is the case, just don't tell PG&E that you're getting an EV. ;)
Quoting from the PG&E Rate Schedule (emphasis added):
ELECTRIC SCHEDULE E-9
EXPERIMENTAL RESIDENTIAL TIME-OF-USE
SERVICE FOR LOW EMISSION VEHICLE CUSTOMERS

APPLICABILITY: This experimental schedule applies to electric service to customers for whom Schedule E-1 applies and who have a currently registered Motor Vehicle, as defined by the California Motor Vehicle Code, which is: 1) a battery electric vehicle (BEV) or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle (PHEV) recharged via a recharging outlet at the customer’s premises; or, 2) a natural gas vehicle (NGV) refueled via a home refueling appliance (HRA) at the customer’s premises. This schedule is required for customers with a BEV or PHEV.
As to whether they have to know, they are also rolling out, on a mandatory basis, "SmartMeters" which give them time of day usage whether you are on a TOD schedule or not. Care to lay odds on whether they will have a computer program chewing through those results? I'm betting it will red-flag anyone with a sudden and consistent jump of 3.3kW each evening over their prior usage. Now add the fact that building permits are public records, and ...
 
Back to the Power Curve then!

I've been looking over the EEStory post, thanks EVNow, and think he's got a good approach, all be it lacking wind speed and a/c / heater power. Seems to me, wind speed is applied with a ws * cos f term where f is the angle of the wind direction relative to the vehicle, 0-degrees being a head-wind and 180-degrees being a tail wind, and ws is the wind speed. Of course, a direct side-on strong wind will force you to steer into it slightly to counter-act the lateral force so take f relative to the correction, not to the parallel of the travel lane.

The heater / cooler would be a discrete function of temperature but I'm not 100% on this. Obviously, at least A/C operates on the principle of PV=nRT by manipulating Pressure and Volume to change Temperature in the unit, taking in warm air and putting out chilled. The question is, is this proportional to the temperature outside. I think this is rather complicated when you consider solar-heating via incident sunlight which, as we all know, can make a cabin temperature well above the outside ambient. For someone who drives West each day around 3pm-4pm, that solar heat can't even be defeated by my A/C at full blast in my ICE. Of course, on a cloudy day, this effect is much diminished, so you really have 2 factors when it comes to A/C: external temperature and solar input. I would guess that A/C power is asymptotically proportional to these 2 factors since there will be a maximum power rating for any A/C unit. It may therefore be easiest to just consider the worst case for both A/C and Heating (which I guess will be heating coils + the fan) and plug those numbers in as a constant.

Have I missed anything significant?

So, putting it all together, we have:

Ptractive = M/1000 * v * (a + g * sin ?) + (M * g * Cr + ?/2 * (v + ws * cos f)**2 * A * Ca) * v/1000 + (ACP + HCP)/1000

Where:

Ptractive = tractive power (kilowatts)
M = vehicle mass (kg)
v = vehicle velocity (m/sec)
a = vehicle acceleration (m/s**2) = ?v/?t
g = gravity (m/s**2) ~= 9.81 m/s**2
? = road grade angle
Cr = rolling resistance coefficient
? = mass density of air (kg/m3), depends on temperature and altitude, 1.225kg/m3 is common
A = cross-sectional area (m2)
Ca = aerodynamic coefficient
ws = Ambient Wind Speed
f = wind direction, relative to straight ahead
ACP = Power used to run the A/C & fan full blast, IFF too hot, in Watts
HCP = Power used to run the Heater & fan full blast IFF too cold, in Watts

(Chief part of equation thanks to EEcclesiastical on the EEStory forum; I can't seem to join that forum to thank him so I thank him here!)

All that said, the think that I bring out of this is that a) both v and a are properly represented as factors and b) those factors are of the form c1 * a * v + c2 * v + c3 * v**2 + c4 * v**3 + c5, where:

c1 = M/1000 in kg
c2 = (M * g * (Cr + sin ?) + ?/2 * ws**2 * cos**2 f * A * Ca) / 1000 in Newtons (n)
c3 = ? * ws * cos f * A * Ca / 1000 in kg-Hertz
c4 = ?/2 * A * Ca /1000 in kg/m
c5 = (ACP + HCP)/1000 in Watts

Now, what we really want to know is range, which as I showed before is equivalent to v * E / P. The question is, to go from power to range is it as I've expressed or is there a dP/dv derivative I need to take. Certainly c1 v ?v / ?t indicates to me there some kind of calculus that should be applied. Like, could I replace this with c1 ? v**2 / 2 ? t?

Again, I think computing 1/range is easier than computing range because 1/range is proportional to power: 1/range = P / (E * v). So that's why I'm thinking derivative:

What if 1/range is actually (dP / dv) / E, where E is of course our constant old friend the 24 kWh battery.

Honestly, I like the idea of the derivative of continuous power function but there is a problem with that: the ACP and HCP terms would drop and we know those effect range! So it probably looks something like:

1/range = (c1 * a + c2 + c3 * v + c4 * v**2 + c5 / v) / E

So there you have it: an equation of five variables! Which means I need 5 data points to evaluate. Theoretically, evnow's numbers do have A/C / Heating runs so I could pull one of those to get one more constant, though it doesn't sound like any of them are A/C + Cruise so it would be hard to evaluate in terms of this equation. Interestingly, the c1 term is 0 for the 37/38 mph runs since they're essentially cruising and I could estimate acceleration with the EPA LA4 by simply assuming ?v * frequency = acceleration, where for LA4, frequency (sample rate) is 1 Hz so it's simply the difference (v[n] - v[n-1]) in m/s**2. One more cruise or the HWFET numbers would allow us, I think, to get this power curve and corresponding range function very accurate if we ignore c5. With c5, we'd need an A/C (and Heater) result with cruise control, or we could just fill those in from spec.
 
Oh, would that I could have a few hours on a test track with access to a LEAF and this little baby loaded on my iPhone: http://hunter.pairsite.com/gmeter/ ! All questions would then be answered!
 
If they are willing to let you drive for a few hors - they would be willing to give the power curves as well :lol:
 
TimeHorse said:
Ptractive = M/1000 * v * (a + g * sin ?) + (M * g * Cr + ?/2 * (v + ws * cos f)**2 * A * Ca) * v/1000 + (ACP + HCP)/1000

Actually, I think since a can be negative (meaning deceleration / braking), and a small percentage of that will be regenerative, that there is a discontinuity where positive a is taken directly but negative a has a percent regenerative efficiency multiplier. Now, how to reflect that in my equations...

At least I can take the US 55 w/ AC and I think it's safe to assume it's another cruise so it can be equation 4... One to go!
 
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