Why I canceled my Leaf order today. :-(

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dallasmay

Active member
Joined
Aug 13, 2010
Messages
35
Today is a sad day for me. I canceled my Nissan Leaf order. Years and years ago, I swore that I would not purchase a new car until I could plug it in at night. When the Volt was announced, and subsequently the Leaf, in 2007, I got really excited. The Volt turned out to be priced out of our budget, which was fine because really I wanted the All Electric Car. When the reservations line opened up a year ago, my wife and I were quick to drop the $99 registration fee for the Leaf. We paid for the AV home inspection, and we started dumping money into a piggy bank. We had the opportunity to test drive the vehicle at one of the test drive events, and couldn't be more inlove with a lifeless mass of aluminum and lithium. When we had a comfortable amount of cash in the piggy, we clicked the "Order" button in February.

I am a huge fan-boy of the vehicle. I have spent more hours than I am willing to admit defending the vehicle against common myths. "It's too expensive." Oh yeah? Are you sure about that? Let's actually do the math and find out how much money you really spend on gas. "Small cars aren't safe." First, of all, that's debatable anyway. Second, this ain't a small car. It has plenty of weight, and feels quite a bit larger than the Malibu I'm driving now. "It's ugly." Well, okay. They were probably right about that one. But like a father of a deformed child, I was willing to overlook it's eccentricities and love it anyway.

I was even able to overlook the fabled "Range Anxiety". I live in the DFW metroplex, and rarely drive over the typical 80 mile range. My wife and I share a car, and are more than willing to take the Bus or Train, or even (gasp) walk to where we need to go. But, the only way that we could make the car work with our life style is with the Level III fast charging port. I would claim that a Nissan Leaf, without a fast charging infrastructure, would cover 95% of our needs. But that last 5% really breaks the deal. We need this to be our only car. (We only have one parking spot.)

You can imagine how thrilled we were when EVGo was announced. I got in contact with the people in charge, and learned all about it. Sure, it seems a little pricey at first, but it's not really that pricey once you figure out that their network they were planning to build out would allow us to use the Leaf as our only car. The savings from the insurance on another car alone would pay for the monthly EVGo fees. Yes, everything was falling into place. My wife and I don't have kids yet, but I would love it if my kids never had to see their father pump gasoline into a vehicle.

However. My only hold up was that there the good people with Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) have still not yet decided to use the Leaf's CHAdeMO Level III charger. I kept holding onto hope that they would quickly adopt it, what else is there? Nothing else that I know of has been announced that competes with it. But, the SAE have publicly said that they will very likely not choose CHAdeMO, and instead will introduce a competing option in December.

I believe that this is a major error on the side of SAE. Not because I think CHAdeMO is a superior standard to whatever it is they are looking into, but because it is picking a fight for no apparent reason. It's a standards war. It's Beta vs. VHS. Windows vs. Mac. HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray. AIM vs. Yahoo vs. MSN. Someone is going to win. A lot of people are going to loose.

Standards Wars always hurt markets. Look at Blu-Ray vs. HDDVD. Who won that one? Blu-Ray, right? No. They both lost. Who won the Instant Messenger wars? No one. They all lost. Does anyone use IM's any more? How about Office Software Suites? Who one that? MS Office won, and now we are all stuck using a horrible *.doc format as the de facto standard. Standards Wars hurt markets.

Nissan, however, is also hurting things. I contacted Nissan about the problem and asked if they would kindly promise to protect their early adopters against future obsolescence? If the SAE chooses another plug for their standard, and it's adopted by the market as a whole, would Nissan promise to either upgrade existing Leafs, or supply an attachment that would bring compatibility. They responded as follows:

"I can not offer any guarantee... It would be wise for companies putting out Electric Vehicles after us, to use the same plug. Customers will be more likely to buy an EV that can be charged at the charge stations that are already in place."

I don't disagree with that statement. It's certainly reasonable, and I would be happy to see that happen. But here is the deal breaker for me and my wife. We cannot afford to place a $35,000 bet on a political standards war. This isn't a fight between $500 DVD players anymore. This isn't $150 e-readers. This isn't a fight between smartphone platforms and their $2 apps. This is a $35,000 car. I only want one car, and I expect a vehicle that I purchase to last 8-10 years. I can't afford to risk obsolescence on a vehicle I purchase. The minimum bet at this table is too high for me. Leasing is off the table for me too, for a different reason.

So, I chose to cancel my Leaf order today. My wife and I will just have to sit this generation out.

Don't get me wrong, I still love this car. I love the idea of All Electric Vehicles. I will still advocate for All Electric, zero emission vehicles. If you have the finances to make this bet, GO FOR IT! I envy you. If you can't imagine life without at least two cars, then definitely consider a Nissan Leaf to replace one of them. But I just can’t count on vehicle manufacturers to do the right thing and protect their early adopters that helped them build their markets.

The reason I am writing this is that I hope someone at Nissan and the SAE reads it. So, to the person at one of these two organizations that has a say in the matter, I ask that you please reconcile your differences. I was willing to take some big risks with purchasing an all electric car and helping you market it through word of mouth to all of my friends and family, but your politics ruined it for me. And if you are not careful, you are going to ruin the whole market as well.
 
So sorry to hear you are sitting this out.

My analysis was significantly different than yours though. I made the assumption that there would be insufficient (or no) available rapid public charging for the foreseeable future.

So far, this has been correct. The number of fast L3 chargers nationwide is in single digits.

Thus the standard is really meaningless at this point. Even if we adopt Nissan's L3 charger, so what, if there aren't any near you.

If you are demanding access to a vast public L3 infrastructure, it isn't there yet. And to be honest, I don't see it for a long time.

I don't see this as a problem Nissan created.

It's a chicken vs egg problem. No fast public chargers if there is no car buyer demand. And no car buyers if no public fast chargers.

Message me in 2 or 3 years. I'll be glad to sell you my nicely cared for Leaf for a lot less, and I'll upgrade to a version 2 or 3 vehicle.


BTW, which dealer did you cancel from? Perhaps others can call and get your orphan.
 
Sorry to hear it as well.

I don't ever plan to Level-3 charge my Leaf. It'll take them the life of my leaf just to get a reasonable Level-2 infrastructure rolled out, IMO. I wouldn't have paid for the port... but the feds paid for it as a part of the EV Project for me.
 
AmarilloLeaf,

I hear what you are saying. In DFW a company named EVGo is in the process of building out a L3 charging network. I am close to the situation and can tell you that by the end of this year they will have dozens to installed and operational CHAdeMO chargers. So the Network is coming here. That was a big deal for me.

However, I asked a contact at EVgo what their plan was if CHAdeMo does not become the standard, and he replied something to the effect to "These chargers are costing me $50,000 a piece, I'll change out the cords." That doesn't leave me in a good place with my obsolete charger.

Now, don't get me wrong, if you can afford to buy a New Leaf today, and think you can flip in in a few years, go for it. As I said, I envy you. I can't make that bet.

As for my Leaf, I will contact my dealer tomorrow. It was going to Trophy Nissan in Dallas. I have nothing bad to say about them. Great Customer service. But I doubt it will make it there, I doubt it's even been shipped to America yet.
 
I'm sorry to hear it, too. You let Detroit scare you out of your dream car. There is zero chance that SAE will deliver anything in Dec, and meanwhile CHAdeMO chargers are going to go in. Any way you can change your mind?
 
AmarilloLeaf said:
My analysis was significantly different than yours though. I made the assumption that there would be insufficient (or no) available rapid public charging for the foreseeable future. So far, this has been correct. If you are demanding access to a vast public L3 infrastructure, it isn't there yet. And to be honest, I don't see it for a long time. BTW, which dealer did you cancel from? Perhaps others can call and get your orphan.

So far, you are correct. But, your assumption is going to be proven false. There WILL be DC fast chargers installed by the end of 2011. The EV Project is under govt. contract to install these. I can't speak for TX, but here in AZ there will be at least 40 installed in Q3-4 this year. That's the latest I've read from people at Blink.
The dealer will not have an orphan. Nissan will take the car and give it the next person in line. The only way the dealer gets the car/orphan is if the person cancels when the car is at the dealer.
 
Sounds like it was a hard call for you and overall an understandable decision. I went with the SLE and did not pay for the L3 QC port, getting one free is one of the multiple perks to signing up for the EV project (i believe they are still taking applications). I concluded, like you, that it may not become standard and certainly the network is a ways off. I am, however, quite convinced that if a new version becomes standard that there will be a way to convert the current one on the LEAF.

G
 
Sorry to hear of your decision, but I only counted on L2 at my house. Anything above that is gravy for me.

If you require outside-your-house charging, and particularly L3, the comments from the guy that said he would change out the cords on his chargers is absolutely correct.

And you would do the same on your LEAF. Believe me, somebody will either make an adapter, or a plug that could be changed out on your car.
 
I would not recommend canceling a LEAF order unless you are really, really sure. It won't cost you anything to cancel later.

If (and that's a big if) the SAE standard takes over, I'd be very, very surprised if someone doesn't build a CHAdeMO plug adapter and start selling it. Others on this forum have strongly suggested that this should be possible. Remember that there will be a large number of LEAFs with CHAdeMO ports on the road, and probably some Mitsubishi "i" cars as well, before the first SAE fast charger gets deployed, if that ever happens. Is this an issue really worth canceling over?

Also, regarding that 5% of your driving that you would need fast charging for, could there be other options? One option might be to rent an ICE car occasionally. Another option, on some occasions, could be to spend the extra time it takes to use L2 charging.

Tomorrow we are planning to drive somewhere between 150 and 180 miles round trip in our LEAF. We have a Prius that could easily and conveniently be used for that drive. However, we just *want* to use the LEAF. So we are going to take a laptop and reading materials, and spend part of our day hanging out at L2 charging facilities.
 
L-3 seems pretty bad for battery longevity and it seems clear that it should be used very rarely. The Leaf is a great commuter car, not so good for long trips--even if there were plenty of L3 chargers, and even if they all worked all the time, and even if they never had wait times or lines you would have to stop for 30 minutes every hour to charge--that would get old fast [L-3 is only 80% and at freeway speed that will get spent in an hour]. If you were planning on using the leaf in a pattern that required L-3 you are better off cancelling and waiting for alternatives to emerge, which they will.
 
I solved my issues with a QC port by not ordering it. L1 does just fine and the occasional L2 is like a rocket.
Maybe next EV in about 10 or 15 years will have a different system.

But cancel the LEAF over this issue? Not a chance. 1900 gasoline free miles so far :D

QC issue seems like a weasel clause to allow an exit for those with cold feet.
 
I hate to say it, but I drive a lot of miles a day (at least 80), and Level 3 is becoming more and more irrelevant to me. Electric cars sound scary when it comes to range, but when you actually own one and drive on a regular basis, you just stop caring about stuff like this. Level 1 and Level 2 works fine (went over 135 miles worth of trips on particular day). You don't need to commit to 8 or 21 hours, even a half hour can make a big difference for cruising around town.

GM is just having SAE create a completely new standard to ice a bunch of their electric car competitors (and scare governments in delaying the infrastructure), and probably still has no intention of selling a real, competitive BEV...other than to bury the concept for another 10 years. With quick charging and NiMH locked up, things are looking quite nice for their oil and part empire.
 
dallasmay said:
AmarilloLeaf,

I hear what you are saying. In DFW a company named EVGo is in the process of building out a L3 charging network. I am close to the situation and can tell you that by the end of this year they will have dozens to installed and operational CHAdeMO chargers. So the Network is coming here. That was a big deal for me.
I don't believe it. From what I've read, there is one CHAdeMO L3 charging station in the entire U.S. right now, and it's not even powered on. Evidently, you have reasons to believe that EVGo's progress is real.

dallasmay said:
However, I asked a contact at EVgo what their plan was if CHAdeMo does not become the standard, and he replied something to the effect to "These chargers are costing me $50,000 a piece, I'll change out the cords."
Seriously?! I guess he thinks/knows the CHAdeMO standard and the (as yet vaporware?!) SAE standard are that compatible? I don't know, of course. I just find it difficult to believe that the SAE would create a different standard yet have it be that compatible. What would be the point?!

Would EVGo bet several millions ($50,000 times "several dozens") on something where one of the standards involved is still vaporware?

In any case, L3 charging is not a panacea. It has its issues. Say there are a number of public L3 charging stations available. Say it takes 30 minutes to charge to 80% on L3. How long will the line be at those charging stations? (I'm assuming that you will not install a $50K L3 charging station, since the $26-27K price of the LEAF already gives you pause.) If there is one LEAF already charging, you're potentially lookin at a max of one hour of wait time.

In my case, I don't care whether the U.S. L3 standard will be CHAdeMO or SAE simply because my LEAF does not have a L3 port! :D

But I do see your concern about owning a $25K door stop. Are you planning on selling the car at some point? What's the worst that can happen if the SAE standard is the L3 standard and nobody wants your CHAdeMO-equipped LEAF? You have to keep driving it, charging it on 240V, until you run it into the ground? What's the alternative? I suppose a Prius is not a bad second choice.
 
LEAFfan said:
AmarilloLeaf said:
My analysis was significantly different than yours though. I made the assumption that there would be insufficient (or no) available rapid public charging for the foreseeable future. So far, this has been correct. If you are demanding access to a vast public L3 infrastructure, it isn't there yet. And to be honest, I don't see it for a long time. BTW, which dealer did you cancel from? Perhaps others can call and get your orphan.

So far, you are correct. But, your assumption is going to be proven false. There WILL be DC fast chargers installed by the end of 2011. The EV Project is under govt. contract to install these. I can't speak for TX, but here in AZ there will be at least 40 installed in Q3-4 this year. That's the latest I've read from people at Blink.
The dealer will not have an orphan. Nissan will take the car and give it the next person in line. The only way the dealer gets the car/orphan is if the person cancels when the car is at the dealer.

LeafFan,

Those are primarily L2 chargers, not L3.

My opinion stands.
 
dallasmay said:
AmarilloLeaf,

As for my Leaf, I will contact my dealer tomorrow. It was going to Trophy Nissan in Dallas. I have nothing bad to say about them. Great Customer service. But I doubt it will make it there, I doubt it's even been shipped to America yet.

What color is it? After test driving my Leaf, I have some friends that might want to grab it.
 
It will meet 95% of your driving needs, and yet you are going to give it up.

Let me see, the savings on fuel on 95% of your driving would add up to what?

A relative, friend, or rental car could be utilized for that 5% with the savings. Heck, if you drive enough you could fly, parking the Leaf for free at the airport?

I am not sure you have thought this out very well, but your life is yours. I know I would trade the use of my ICE for the use of a Leaf, that is if I didn't already own one. That would be a win/win situation for many people.

Glad you still are enthusiastic about EV adoption, keep putting pennies away and get a Tesla Model S. I would throw 5 grand at one now though, the list is long!

Best thought in your OP is where you say you want your children to never see Dad filling up a vehicle with gas - love that image.
 
Sorry to hear about your dilemma. We're in Dallas as well and are picking up our Leaf Friday (very excited, and glad the wait is over). We'll be going down to the Leaf as our only vehicle, so we had to think long and hard about charging opportunities. We're in an apartment community as well, so it makes it even more challenging (we'll be trickle charging until someone here makes up their mind about installing an L2 charger for us). I've been in a lot of discussion with eVgo over the past few months and their plans for the area, as the L3 infrastructure would be a great solution to our situation. Unfortunately their plans have been held up due to various issues and it's not rolling out as quickly as we had hoped. I do think that out of all the charging schemes their business model is the best. In a few years I think it will be much easier for EV owners to get around; we know going in that it's going to be a bit of a challenge. But like any early adopter I think we'll work through those challenges and learn from it/enjoy doing it (we moved to downtown Dallas about 5 years ago before it was the trendy thing to do). Ask me in a few months how it's working out :)
 
Caracalover said:
It will meet 95% of your driving needs, and yet you are going to give it up.

A relative, friend, or rental car could be utilized for that 5% with the savings. Heck, if you drive enough you could fly, parking the Leaf for free at the airport?

My wife and I tried out several different options. We really did think this through pretty completely. The problem is that the Metroplex is so freakishly large. (Larger than the island of Oahu, or a couple of NE States. And 5% is larger than it sounds. It is once ever 20 days. That's only about 18 days/year, but they aren't all together. With that frequency we found that simply renting cars does not work out, nor would we want to bother our friends with borrowing their car. The first year or so would be really cool for them, but what about year five? Or eight? I'm afraid that canceling was the correct option.



To be clear, I'm not committing suicide. I may have been overly dramatic, but all-in-all I just plan on waiting out the first generation or two. Not that big of deal. Really, if I was going to describe my feelings in human terms, I feel kind of like I would if all of my old college friends were getting together for a weekend, and my boss tells me that he is going to need me to work. He might have a good reason for needing me that weekend, but I'm still bummed out about it. It's part of being a responsible adult. I'll get over it.
 
dallasmay said:
I'm still bummed out about it. It's part of being a responsible adult. I'll get over it.
Fair enough, I have to admit I can't imagine life with only one vehicle, so you are far greener than I, even though I use my Leaf for 90% of my driving. and I am always looking for ways to use it on that other 10%.
 
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