Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

[GRA]

In 2012, the Volt outsold the LEAF handily (23,461 versus 9819). In 2013, Volt held a slim lead (23,094 versus 22,610). But this year, Volt is backsliding while LEAF is still gaining: (8615 versus 12736).

Is it simply that the Volt has real competitors in its space while LEAF does not (Tesla Model S excluded)?

That's my take - PHEVs are doing fine as a group. The Volt has two competitors with four figure sales, and the C-Max is in essence a Fusion with a different body style, and is the only other sub-$40k PHEV to break 500 sales/month. The LEAF remains alone as a nationwide BEV in its price range, the non-advertised FFE excluded. We'll have to wait for the e-Golf and Soul to arrive, or one of the compliance manufacturers to open up sales nationally for the LEAF to deal with the same situation as the Volt does.

PiP seems to be eating Volt's lunch now and the Ford Energi product sales are ramping up nicely. Is PiP winning because of the very high gas mileage and high electricity prices in CA? Prii have more utility than the Volt?

I suspect the Prius does well owing to the combination of being the lowest-priced car to qualify for green stickers, lower price with incentives than the regular version in some states, and best Hwy mileage for long, high speed commutes, especially in California. These two studies which I'd previously referenced in the H2 topic provide a lot of useful info:

Tal, G., and Nicholas, M.A. (2013). Studying the PEV Market in California: Comparing
the PEV, PHEV and Hybrid Markets. Institute of Transportation Studies,
University of California, Davis, Research Report UCD-ITS-RR-13-22.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/html/ca_pevmarket" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... ucdits.pdf

Tal, G. and Nicholas, M.A. (2014). Evaluating the Impact of High Occupancy Vehicle
(HOV) Lane Access on Plug-In Vehicles (PEVs) Purchasing and Usage in
California. Institute of Transportation Studies, University of California, Davis.
file:///home/chronos/u-058e303ac19766bc2110f46ecaa9e45220133e1d/Downloads/2014-UCD-ITS-WP-14-01.pdf

I forget which, but one of these studies of Californian (mostly) LEAF, Volt and PiP owners shows a very good correlation between commute distance and which car people got, with the shortest distance commuters getting LEAFs, middle distance Volts and longest distance PiPs. [Edit]: It's the second one. Here's a quote from page 2:

"The percentage of those that applied for the HOV access decal include 95% of Plug-in Priuses,
89% of Volts and 79% of LEAFs. When asked about their primary motivation to buy the car 57%
of Plug-in Priuses, 34% of Volts and 38% of Leafs identified it as the HOV decal (a more recent
4Q 2013 analysis shows somewhat lower percentages - 34%, 20%, and 15% respectively [1]).
Figure 1 presents the regional distribution of HOV access as the main motivation for purchasing
by vehicle type and location. As expected the motivation in the Los Angeles region and the Bay
Area, areas with high benefit of using decals, is higher than other regions. We also notice that in
the Los Angeles region, an area with longer average trips, the impact on the Plug-In Prius is
higher than on other vehicle types. More than 80% of the PEVs are being used for commuting
which is highly correlated with applying for decals though only 58% commute with this car
daily. Leaf drivers and “other” car drivers which are mostly BEVs have a lower commute
frequency than PHEV drivers. Regions have minor impacts on commute frequency except from
San-Diego with a few more non-commuters. Commute trips have an important impact on total
miles, with more than 70% of households using their PEV for this purpose."

No offense, but I don't quite understand the appeal of the Ford products. Default plug-ins for Ford lovers? <snip rest>

Looks, five seats, lowish price for the C-Max, no need/little value for L2 so no installation/permit costs or hassles.

 

[TomT]

And a much more stylish interior with more advanced technology and features...

No offense, but I don't quite understand the appeal of the Ford products. Default plug-ins for Ford lovers? <snip rest>

Looks, five seats, lowish price for the C-Max, no need/little value for L2 so no installation/permit costs or hassles.

 

[Pipcecil]

Volt is:
1. more expensive to buy
2. more expensive to maintain
3. less interior space.

On the plus side, has longer range.

If you follow the service manual - the volt is cheaper to maintain than the leaf is. But you always have people skipping maintenance and you have dealerships trying to squeeze you for more, so the service manual is a good mark.

Actually, in general, GM is building some very good cars these days...

There has been a dealer "weeding out" where I live.
We have 1 Nissan dealer who really cared about the Leaf, learned what needed to be learned, and has people with the know-how to sell and support the car.
They sell Butt-loads of them
They have every color sitting on their lot, ready to go.
I have a Suburban, and last time I was in for an oil change (remember those?), I asked the GM Dealer to see a Volt.
These guys are the BIG GM dealer locally, and they don't even have one.
They don't even have a Level 2 EVSE installed.
(how can you service the Volt without a Level 2? The Ford dealer has had a Level 2 for 2 years on the Rumor of their EV)
Because of the low volume, and the Volt has had some issues, they just don't need the headaches.

(Plus, the Volt Blows. What does it get on pure battery... Like 11 Miles (With a tailwind.... Down hill :lol: )
Stick a 24Kw HV pack in there, and you would have something.
But you would also have a $50K Volt.

Semi agree - the GM dealerships here in Dallas-Fort Worth really don't care much for the Volt and none have Level 2's installed. Even getting repairs when something went bad has been awful, they are really incompetent sometimes. As for the Volt range - uhhh, you are thinking of a PiP, my wife easily gets ~50 miles in the summer and 40ish in the winter with the heater. Way more than any plug-in

Being in Texas we don't have the vehicles available that other states have, but the Volt sales are fairly even, just slightly higher than the Leaf. Most likely due to the sprawling size of our cities (land is uber cheap). But the reasoning for the leaf and PiP sales:

PiP - its Toyota and its a Prius, its brand name recognition. People still buy loyalty when it comes to cars. And its the "green" brand and model. It is essentially riding on coat-tails. That's it, that's all that's all that's carrying it. Which is sad because it really isn't that great of a plug-in. Its my millennial generation that will spice things up and doesn't care about brand loyalty anymore.

Leaf - Price, price, price, price. I have seen a TON of new leaf's now (the 2014's are easy to spot). And guess what? They are all the "S" version. I rarely see an SV and haven't seen one 2014 SL in the wild. That's not to say the SL isn't being bought, but you can easily deduce that the cheaper price has greatly increased sales.

The problem with the volt is 2 fold: it is small and only carries 4. Americans still have problems with buying smaller cars, I think just because of its size kicks it out of some people's list. Secondly is the price. Its not that its way more expensive than the competition, its because its base price is higher. If you take a leaf or a c-max energi, PiP, etc. and match all the amenities the Volt has and get those options on the other cars, they are either more expensive or the same price. The difference is that you can't get a bare skin & bones Volt like you can with a Leaf S. My wife's volt has more bells and whistles than my SL leaf (2011). Some people just can't see beyond the sticker price even if they add amenities that make it more expensive. Its just how people think when it comes to price.

 

[johnrhansen]

would it be feasible for Nissan to come up with a little range extender generator option for the leaf? It would fit nicely in that unused space under the trunk in the back.

 

[hill]

would it be feasible for Nissan to come up with a little range extender generator option for the leaf? It would fit nicely in that unused space under the trunk in the back.

range extender? Ha yeah sure they'll get that right out to you. . . right after that $9,900 QC they promised back in 2011. Don't forget they wouldn't even give us a battery warranty if the thousands hadn't gone litigious on them regarding premature capacity loss.
.

 

[asimba2]

I get more questions on my Leaf now than when I first got it. Friends, colleagues at work and even people that live in my neighborhood are seeing them around and realizing they really do work and want to know more about it. As others have said, very few people want to be a guinea pig with a $30k investment, but the more people that get them, the less risky it seems.

Plug-ins are appealing to people because its a transition technology, when compared to going all-in on an electric-only vehicle. I suspect that in a couple of years when there are even more EVs on the road and 150+ mile range ones are offered, plug-in sales will be affected.

 

[dhanson865]

If you follow the service manual - the volt is cheaper to maintain than the leaf is.

Sorry I find that hard to believe in light of the repair stats from truedelta:

2013 Chevrolet Volt 45
2013 Nissan LEAF 42
2013 Toyota Prius 8

2012 Chevrolet Volt 41
2012 Nissan LEAF 12
2012 Toyota Prius 12

2011 Nissan LEAF 13
2011 Toyota Prius 17

older leafs seem to be as reliable as a Prius, newer leafs and the Volt seem to be more problematic. Furthermore reading the specific issues the volt stories scare me more

Chevrolet Volt in Texas, United States
Feb 2013 - Mar 2014
Apr 2013 7500 mi Multiple systemic failures starting with the AC and cascaded to other critical electrical systems including those that manage the power train.
May 2013 8000 Volt has been in the shop for over 60 days now for an issue with computer sensors and the battery electric motor system. So far, no resolution.
Jul 2013 9300 The dealership was unable to determine the true root cause. They ran sensor wires through different pathways in the engine compartment and the problem ceased to re-appear. Actual time to repair was 108 days.

Chevrolet Volt in California, United States
Apr 2012 - Mar 2014
Aug 2012 5000 mi A leaking coolant valve.
Nov 2013 22000 Car would not charge due to problem with high voltage charging system.

Chevrolet Volt in New York, United States
Feb 2012 - Mar 2014
Mar 2012 433 mi Replaced cracked bus connector. Cracked connector allowed intermittent pin contact causing engine computer to believe there was a problem with engine. Computer shut down engine to protect it.
May 2012 4000 CEL came on during road trip. Went to dealer next day but light was not lit. Tech said that the DTCs were random. Codes were cleared and he will look for them next time car returns for work. Codes were P0700, P0712, P1AF0, P1AF2 and P1E22.
Mar 2014 23000 Trouble codes P2717 and P0700. First repair was to disassemble and clean Transmission Control Module (TCM) (FP#242681610). Fault not corrected. Then TCM replaced and programmed TCM/SOL code 1875D. Fault corrected.

Chevrolet Volt in Quebec, Canada
Dec 2013 14260 Check engine with message like : "charger coolant maintenance required". Low level of battery coolant detected by a faulty sensor. Sensor replaced and battery coolant toped (too much probably) Driver seat base was loose. "Rails and rollers" kit were replaced. Delay of a few days for the replacement part. Plug-in door did not open all the time. Plug-in door replaced.
Jun 2014 20460 Check engine light blinking, misfire, cylinder head had to be replaced. Details : http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?116146-Cylinder-head-had-to-be-replaced" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Hi Dominique, i suppose you are in Quebec, did you get your car recently? Or did it go tru our last winter here in Quebec?
I'm asking cause i know of 2 others here who had to replace the head on the ICE of the Volt here. When it's very cold and you drive the car, the engine will rev to levels that make me uncomfortable sometimes, especially from a dead stop when the ICE is on, be it on ERDTT or a drained battery, my 2012's ICE will scream if i press to hard on the pedal. So much so that i learned to take it easy from a stop when the ICE is on.
I understand that from 2013 YM and on, this was corrected with the ICE software giving more of a buffer before reving too high.

whatever the cause the number of repair trips is lower on the Prius even though it is a hybrid with both gas and electric motors. As long as the Volt is showing significantly more repairs it looks like a worse system to deal with. At least with the Leaf I you don't have to pump gas, change oil, change spark plugs, etcetera...

 

[DanCar]

If you follow the service manual - the volt is cheaper to maintain than the leaf is. But you always have people kipping maintenance and you have dealerships trying to squeeze you for more, so the service manual is a good mark.

What makes you say that? How often do you have to check the oil level on a Leaf? How often do you have to burn off old gas in a leaf? http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-archive/2010/09/chevy-volt-programmed-to-handle-stale-gas-by-routinely-firing-up-generator.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
For 18 months of usage of Leaf my service has been free: battery check and tire rotation, with no oil checking necessary.
If the battery degradation issues are fixed or you live in a mild climate like I do, then you won't have to worry about standard hybrid issues, like timing belt repair, exhaust repair, transmission repair, smog check, etc...

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Bottom line, since both cars need to be taken in for tire rotations the inconvenience to the customer is about the same, as annual battery checks, 24 month oil changes, etc can all be done in one shot. Once the investment in time has been made to bring the car in it doesn't really matter to the end user whether they do one thing or three back in the service dept.

 

[RonDawg]

It's not because of the recalls, if the recalls were a factor June sales would not have been a seven year high for GM.

GM (as a whole) sold 1% more vehicles last month than in June 2013. But, Chevrolet as a separate division actually sold 2.5 % fewer vehicles over the same time period. So I do wonder how much of that is due to the bad initial publicity over the recalls, since the Cobalt (and a couple of Saturns) were the ones originally identified with the problem.

BTW Nissan (to include Infiniti) sold 5.3% more cars over the same time period, even though Infiniti itself sold 5.9% fewer cars. Nissan (the brand) actually sold 6.4% more cars.

Source: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/07/usa-june-2014-auto-brand-sales-results-rankings.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[MikeinDenver]

Bottom line, since both cars need to be taken in for tire rotations the inconvenience to the customer is about the same, as annual battery checks, 24 month oil changes, etc can all be done in one shot. Once the investment in time has been made to bring the car in it doesn't really matter to the end user whether they do one thing or three back in the service dept.

Inconvenience is one thing, money is another. More services typically means more $.

 

[johnrhansen]

All the scheduled maintenance on the leaf is extra BS in my opinion. Even the tire rotations. If you think about it, just how much more life can you get out of your tires by rotating them? I have 17,000 miles on mine, and I checked. they are all wearing out exactly evenly. I have mine looked at once a year for the battery report and that's it. The leaf is pretty much maintenance free. The battery will be shot before the rest of the components wear out anyway.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Bottom line, since both cars need to be taken in for tire rotations the inconvenience to the customer is about the same, as annual battery checks, 24 month oil changes, etc can all be done in one shot. Once the investment in time has been made to bring the car in it doesn't really matter to the end user whether they do one thing or three back in the service dept.

Inconvenience is one thing, money is another. More services typically means more $.

Chevy dealer gives me free tire rotation, Nissan dealer charges me $20+++ for those. I expect to pay for one oil change on the Volt in the time I have it. On a three year lease the difference between the two will probably be within a few dollars. I doubt that is influencing people's decision, new car buyers don't think that way.

 

[RegGuheert]

IMO, an all-electric car was just too radical for the majority of car buyers. Now that people are seeing them on the road and not spontaneously bursting into flame or sitting stranded by the side of the road, they are starting to get a second look and the Volt just can't compete with the convenience of the Leaf.

+1

I think this is a big part of it.

I also know that many of us LEAF owners have been holding our praise until the battery range and degradation are both enhanced. That doesn't explain what has happened with sales to date, since the battery degradation improvements have just been announced and are still an unknown in terms of real-world effects. But I can tell you that if we see good durability and a bigger battery in a couple of years, my recommendations of the LEAF will be much more positive than they are today!

 

[MikeinDenver]

All the scheduled maintenance on the leaf is extra BS in my opinion. Even the tire rotations. If you think about it, just how much more life can you get out of your tires by rotating them? I have 17,000 miles on mine, and I checked. they are all wearing out exactly evenly. I have mine looked at once a year for the battery report and that's it. The leaf is pretty much maintenance free. The battery will be shot before the rest of the components wear out anyway.

Tire rotations are easy to do at home with minimal equipment.

 

[TomT]

+1 But I want a track record first, I'll not be burned by taking them at their word again...

But I can tell you that if we see good durability and a bigger battery in a couple of years, my recommendations of the LEAF will be much more positive than they are today!

 

[TomT]

Costco does it for me (along with a wheel balance) for free... And even if I had to pay for it, my time is worth more than 20 bucks...

Tire rotations are easy to do at home with minimal equipment.

 

[johnrhansen]

a set of tires costs what... 600 bucks? and lasts say.... 40, Lets say just for 45,000 miles. that's 6 tire rotations. So if I don't rotate them what do I lose... 10 percent of the lifespan? That's 60 bucks. The way I see it, that's $10 per rotation. Hardly worth spending any time or money. maybe I'll rotate the tires once at 20,000 miles or so.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Tire rotations are easy to do at home with minimal equipment.

If I'm taking the car in for the battery check or a firmware update why would I bother? I'd rather not give up my Saturday afternoon for a couple sawbucks.

 

[Elephanthead]

I would wager I can rotate my leafs tires faster then you can get the dealer to do it even if they are already doing a battery check. It is probably a different guy and there is no way they do it at the same time in the same spot.