Why is the LEAF pulling away from the Volt?

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mwalsh said:
Hand-torque lug-nuts. Only knuckle-draggers use an impact wrench (even a torquing one).

used to remove and replace but all final torques are done with my cross wrench thing oh and i guess i should add that final torques were not part of the the timed event.

i thought about timing my rotations on the LEAF but now live on sloped driveway and more importantly, I am now 10 years older...
 
As a ex-Volt owner, and current Leaf owner I'll give my $0.02. My wife and I purchased the Volt first in 2012. We really wanted an electric car but the range of the Leaf made me very nervous. After about 1 year with the Volt, we absolutely loved rarely having to buy gas and we become much more comfortable with "range anxiety", so we traded in our other car for a 2013 Leaf. So now we were driving a Volt and a Leaf. We can go back and forth between the pluses and minuses of both, but as a purely daily driver the Leaf is lower cost to operate, and has a little more room for running errands and picking up the kids. Now after 1 year of driving both the Leaf and the Volt, we added a second kid to the family, so we needed a decent size car to fit the dog, kids, and all of our gear for longer trips. The Volt could go the distance but it's way to small. So we just traded the Volt in for an Audi wagon for our longer trips.

Most families who are buying electric cars, probably tend have higher incomes, and probably have two vehicles. If your electric car is going to be your second vehicle, the Leaf makes much more sense in my opinion. The extended range capability of the Volt I believe is attractive to people who only have one vehicle. As an only vehicle, the Volt is very small and quite pricey. If the Gen 2 Volt adds a 5th seat, a bigger hatch, and the price drops to the mid to upper $20K's, sales will pick up. Otherwise, for less money, and a bigger electric range, the Leaf will continue dominating people replacing their second car with an electric.
 
manitou820 said:
Most families who are buying electric cars, probably tend have higher incomes, and probably have two vehicles. If your electric car is going to be your second vehicle, the Leaf makes much more sense in my opinion. The extended range capability of the Volt I believe is attractive to people who only have one vehicle. As an only vehicle, the Volt is very small and quite pricey. If the Gen 2 Volt adds a 5th seat, a bigger hatch, and the price drops to the mid to upper $20K's, sales will pick up. Otherwise, for less money, and a bigger electric range, the Leaf will continue dominating people replacing their second car with an electric.

My own experience matches this conclusion. The Leaf is our "second car" - we have 4 kids so we couldn't consider it our primary. However, ironically, the second car actually gets more use in daily driving (dropping off one subset of kids, running errands during school time, whatever). The Volt was rejected due to size - only 4 seatbelts means more use of the minivan. As it is, anytime I'm at work the rest of the family fist in the Leaf, no problem. I also had a desire to eliminate gas entirely - while the range of the Volt may have achieved this (in fact I do wonder if we could live within it) we would then have to consider 'old gas' issues.

Anyway - I'm not sure any of this entirely explains the difference in sales. The cost of the Leaf to me was much lower than the volt (after all rebates applied) so that really made a difference. The volt dealer I talked to was one of those "couldn't care less to sell the volt, here take a look at this.." types. Leaf dealer wasn't quite that bad - at least didn't try to push away from the leaf on first visit so perhaps that helped too.
 
It is interesting though that GM incrementally improves the Volt's range while Nissan does essentially nothing for the Leaf...

"Nobody really expected much out of the 2015 Chevrolet Volt. After all, the big redesign is coming next year to rejuvenate GM’s flagship plug-in hybrid. This year’s model wasn’t supposed to receive any notable changes.

A first report by Inside EVs has now been confirmed, however – the 2015 Chevrolet Volt will receive a small boost in battery capacity and corresponding electric range.

This year’s edition of the world’s best-selling plug-in hybrid gets a little bit better with 17.1 kWh of battery capacity, up 3.6% from the previous model’s 16.5 kWh.

Considering the 2014 model year had about 10 kWh of usable capacity, the assumption that the additional 600 Wh will all be “usable” capacity yields a potential 6% increase in all-electric range. To your average Chevrolet Volt driver, this theoretically increases the car’s 38-mile electric range to just over 40 miles."
 
Do we know if the 2016 Volt will have any more head room than the current model. I'm 6' 3" and while the Leaf has a ton of head room the volt is really cramped. I'm worried I would smack my head really good if I got in a crash in the Volt.
 
TomT said:
It is interesting though that GM incrementally improves the Volt's range while Nissan does essentially nothing for the Leaf...

They are taking care of the heating issues. I'm fairly sure the next gen battery would be here by now - but for the degradation issues.

BTW, not sure the tiny improvements really matter much. The big generational improvements are more important.
 
It is a new platform so I would assume that the answer is yes...

gsleaf said:
Do we know if the 2016 Volt will have any more head room than the current model. I'm 6' 3" and while the Leaf has a ton of head room the volt is really cramped. I'm worried I would smack my head really good if I got in a crash in the Volt.
 
evnow said:
They are taking care of the heating issues. I'm fairly sure the next gen battery would be here by now - but for the degradation issues.
+1

It seems Nissan had a choice: Improve the range when new or improve the range after the car has some age on it. They chose the latter in an effort to meet the most pressing market demand. Personally, I think they made the correct choice.
 
TomT said:
It is interesting though that GM incrementally improves the Volt's range while Nissan does essentially nothing for the Leaf...

"Nobody really expected much out of the 2015 Chevrolet Volt. After all, the big redesign is coming next year to rejuvenate GM’s flagship plug-in hybrid. This year’s model wasn’t supposed to receive any notable changes.

A first report by Inside EVs has now been confirmed, however – the 2015 Chevrolet Volt will receive a small boost in battery capacity and corresponding electric range.

This year’s edition of the world’s best-selling plug-in hybrid gets a little bit better with 17.1 kWh of battery capacity, up 3.6% from the previous model’s 16.5 kWh.

Considering the 2014 model year had about 10 kWh of usable capacity, the assumption that the additional 600 Wh will all be “usable” capacity yields a potential 6% increase in all-electric range. To your average Chevrolet Volt driver, this theoretically increases the car’s 38-mile electric range to just over 40 miles."


Ooh....two extra miles of range....I think I'll trade the Leaf in for a Volt right now! /sarcasm

On a serious note, I agree with the above sentiments that Nissan tackle the premature degradation issue before improving range. Gaining any extra miles isn't all that useful when you end up losing them a few years later when the battery degrades.
 
RonDawg said:
Ooh....two extra miles of range....I think I'll trade the Leaf in for a Volt right now! /sarcasm

On a serious note, I agree with the above sentiments that Nissan tackle the premature degradation issue before improving range. Gaining any extra miles isn't all that useful when you end up losing them a few years later when the battery degrades.

And 3 extra miles in the 2013 Volt.

Listen, I am not saying the Volt is superior to the Leaf. The incremental changes are nothing to scoff at.
They add up over time.
And they don't seem to loose any range over time (at least so far).
 
No, the correct choice would have been to get it right the first time. No one else has had the battery problems that they have had. They are simply recovering from some bad decisions...

RegGuheert said:
It seems Nissan had a choice: Improve the range when new or improve the range after the car has some age on it. They chose the latter in an effort to meet the most pressing market demand. Personally, I think they made the correct choice.
 
Maybe folks who have driven the Volt are thinking 'hey, a year later and the engine has only ever run just to exercise itself. All I really needed was a 50 mile range EV! :idea: '
 
And then there are the ones who are thinking, I take the ICE once or so every week because I just don't have enough range. It would be nice to have one car (or both) that can easily do both.

donald said:
Maybe folks who have driven the Volt are thinking 'hey, a year later and the engine has only ever run just to exercise itself. All I really needed was a 50 mile range EV! :idea: '
 
manitou820 said:
Most families who are buying electric cars, probably tend have higher incomes, and probably have two vehicles. If your electric car is going to be your second vehicle, the Leaf makes much more sense in my opinion. The extended range capability of the Volt I believe is attractive to people who only have one vehicle. As an only vehicle, the Volt is very small and quite pricey. If the Gen 2 Volt adds a 5th seat, a bigger hatch, and the price drops to the mid to upper $20K's, sales will pick up. Otherwise, for less money, and a bigger electric range, the Leaf will continue dominating people replacing their second car with an electric.
I've been saying this now for 4 years. But many Volt fans apparently aren't in good enough standing with their spouses to borrow the ICE when needed ;)
 
I thought about buying a volt, but at the time it was smaller and cost more. I was thinking that if I bought a volt, I'd always be trying to find ways to get where the engine hardly ran. Well in the leaf is like that. Less engine, more battery! I kept my truck in case of a long trip, and after 10 months I found I never used it so I sold it. I don't miss it at all.
 
The LEAF has been mostly outselling the Volt since the 2013 US built model came out. LEAF would have outsold the Volt in 2013 had it not been for very poor LEAF sales in January and February before the US transition.

I think it comes down to commitment. Nissan has kept doubling down on EVs. They are rolling out charge stations to all their dealerships, giving out quick chargers. They've been promoting fairly heavily and effectively. They've been offering exceptional lease deals. They've publicly stated that they're serious about EVs and expect to do more.

Contrast that with GM. They've had a very strange inventory management philosophy that looks like desperation. Each year they way over build in the spring, stop building over the summer, then have a flash sale of desperation in the fall and announce a new model year with no real changes. Smells of desperation. Of a company not proud of their car but having to sell off inventory.
Ackerman's comments could have been positive, about GM's commitment to EVs and future enhancements. Instead it came across as todays car is way over priced, we're reluctantly selling them at a big loss. They're going to be a ton cheaper and better in the future so why buy now?
ELR has been a disaster. Embarrassing that GM thought they could compete with Tesla by simply doubling the price, making the interior fancy without improving the fundamental mechanics, i.e. battery capacity, performance, etc. Then insult the world and their EV core with a pro-American, anti-world, anti-green advertising campaign.

GM has not rolled out EV charging stations. Charging stations that may be present at Chevy dealerships are not public, not available for charging.
GM has pushed CCS, the combo charging solution, trying to slow or stop chademo while not lifting a finger to deploy CCS. Typical FUD and stall.

Overall, bottom line, looks like Nissan is trying hard to lead in EVs.
GM acts reluctant, uncertain, uncommitted.

Besides that, I think the Volt is not a comfortably sized car. They need a car with better use of interior space. Having the battery in the cabin may have worked for the EV1 but not in today's car. They need to move the battery out of the way, support 5 passenger seating, have a taller more spacious cabin with better visibility.

The LEAF is far from perfect, can be bland or distasteful styling. But its a generally competent, comfortable car that can appeal to a broad segment of the population world wide.

And I still wonder if the whole idea of a PHEV is fundamentally flawed. You end up with the worst of both worlds. Have to carry around two complete drive trains. Neither can be as good as a car with one purpose built drive train. Carrying around both a complete ICE and EV drive train causes extra weight to be carried around all the time, less performance, less interior space available, more cost. The other PHEVs are more like hybrids with a small battery. I think its very possible that as batteries come down in price, BEVs with better range will win out over a PHEV. You could argue they already have.
 
donald said:
Maybe folks who have driven the Volt are thinking 'hey, a year later and the engine has only ever run just to exercise itself. All I really needed was a 50 mile range EV! :idea: '
This thinking was one of the reasons I ended up with the Leaf rather than the Volt.

That, along some annoyances in the Volt I could not overcome, such as the fact that the interior of the Volt felt cramped (I'm 5'6" and never before have I felt like my head was close to the ceiling of a car).

And Nissan has done so much more to deploying charging infrastructure (although I wish Nissan corporate would try to get every Nissan dealer to provide free 24 hr QC access to Leaf owners).
 
jlv said:
donald said:
Maybe folks who have driven the Volt are thinking 'hey, a year later and the engine has only ever run just to exercise itself. All I really needed was a 50 mile range EV! :idea: '
This thinking was one of the reasons I ended up with the Leaf rather than the Volt.

That, along some annoyances in the Volt I could not overcome, such as the fact that the interior of the Volt felt cramped (I'm 5'6" and never before have I felt like my head was close to the ceiling of a car).

And Nissan has done so much more to deploying charging infrastructure (although I wish Nissan corporate would try to get every Nissan dealer to provide free 24 hr QC access to Leaf owners).

Did you play with the seat height adjustment? It has about 4" of range, and might have been jacked up in the car you tried.

With sales people they way they are, I'd guess that no one bothered to show you the adjustment lever at all. I know it was a month or two, and a forum post, before I figured it out...
 
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