Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

[IssacZachary]

I think if a person wants a Tesla, he should get a Tesla. If he wants a Bolt, then get a Bolt. If he wants a Leaf, then get a Leaf.

The 2018 Leaf is one of the cheapest. If you have a budget that should be appealing. It's a daily driver family car, one that can do far more than the average 30 miles per day. If you need something to get you and your family from point A to point B on a daily basis, as long as that daily basis isn't 80 miles there and 80 miles back, then the Leaf would be an appropriate choice. I currently haul around up to 4 other adults usually up to 30 miles per day, which seems perfect for my current Leaf. I also take it 70 miles one way (charging at the destination) on the weekends, also with up to 5 passengers total, which is stretching it. If I had a 30kW or a 40kW Leaf that would be a bit easier. A 150 miles battery is still going to have over 100 miles on it when it's capacity is down to 70%, the point considered when the battery has passed it's useful life. That's still far more than the daily 30 miles average, and would be plenty for my weekend trips.

The Bolt is here and now. It is honestly a decent car IMO. But it is smaller and much more expensive. And with an extra range that I personally wouldn't use on a regular basis.

The Tesla 3 is also a very nice car. It has the Tesla SC network. But it is more expensive and smaller than the Leaf. I don't see how this car could appeal to family oriented people like me.

To sum it up in my own personal controversial opinion, if you want a fancy sports car that you can brag about how far it goes and take it on long trips, then get a Tesla. If you want one now and can't afford a Tesla S or wait for a 3, then get a Bolt. And if you want a budget minded family car that, no, won't let you take your family out of state every weekend, but would be a good soccer-mom car, then get a Leaf.

Let the best car win. But I think both the Tesla 3 and Leaf 2 as well as the Chevy Bolt are all great cars. But there are strong opinions one way and the other because in a way we're comparing apples to oranges. It's almost like trying to compare a coupe and a station wagon.

 

[tattoogunman]

I am not a Tesla fan by any means for a variety of reasons, but having seen what the Leaf 2 is going to be and its cost, I would probably opt for the Tesla. Why? Greater range and hands down better looks and performance. My only reservation would be the wait for the Model 3 and that's assuming Tesla can actually get their production up to where it needs to be. I'm not someone who is willing to sit around waiting a year or more for a freaking car when I can down to any Nissan, BMW, or Chevy dealer tomorrow and drive off with an EV. I'm not overly concerned with what's "cool" and what emblem is on the front and back of my car - if it works for me, I'm good. Right now I'm taking a wait and see approach before I make the switch to an EV as my current ICE car is so efficient that switching to electric doesn't really make much economic sense for me.

You could always whet your appetite by buying a used Leaf until you get your Model 3, as long as you're willing to keep the Leaf as a backup or take a minor bath on its residual. I picked up my 2012 Leaf SL for $6,000 with 10 bars (now 9 bars, 2/3 of the way of losing my 9th...) I expect that 1st and 1.5 gen Leafs to get really cheap once the 2018 Leaf hits dealerships. Even now you can find 2015 Leafs (S trim) for just under $9k.

Although, it may just increase your appetite for something a little more upscale. The hatchback of the Leaf is certainly of greater utility, but I intend on keeping my 2012 Leaf alongside my Model 3 as long as its range is still usable. My new job supposedly has EVSE stations in the parking deck, and assuming they are operational and not consistently ICEd, then my wife will get our first Model 3, and I'll delay on our second Model 3 until I can get the performance model.

I've looked at the Gen 1 and even drove one last year. In the beginning, and I'm being honest, I wasn't really blown away by it. As time has moved on, I've grown to be OK with the Gen 1. As you said, they are readily available relatively inexpensively, but if I did it, I would want a '16 or newer that had the 30 kWh pack and those are still going for more than I can afford (even used).

I'm a "born again" college student in my 40's set to graduate at the end of the year, so my income is limited at the moment. My current car (2012 Fiat 500) is so stupid cheap to run and maintain that it makes no real economic sense for me to switch. I spend around $500 (or less) a year for gas, only have to change my oil once a year, and I do all of my own work on the car.

I looked at picking up a Leaf last year and my insurance alone was going to increase by $300+ a year and that doesn't include what I would have to pay for electricity. I figure best case scenario, I would probably reach a break even point if I were to switch over to an EV - the money I would save in gas and maintenance would be offset by my increased insurance and electric payments. I still want to make the switch as I only drive around 10 - 15 miles a day and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I'm the perfect candidate for an EV, it's just their cost that is keeping me out and that's the same reason why I would not consider Tesla as I simply couldn't afford one.

 

[tattoogunman]

I think if a person wants a Tesla, he should get a Tesla. If he wants a Bolt, then get a Bolt. If he wants a Leaf, then get a Leaf.

The 2018 Leaf is one of the cheapest. If you have a budget that should be appealing. It's a daily driver family car, one that can do far more than the average 30 miles per day. If you need something to get you and your family from point A to point B on a daily basis, as long as that daily basis isn't 80 miles there and 80 miles back, then the Leaf would be an appropriate choice. I currently haul around up to 4 other adults usually up to 30 miles per day, which seems perfect for my current Leaf. I also take it 70 miles one way (charging at the destination) on the weekends, also with up to 5 passengers total, which is stretching it. If I had a 30kW or a 40kW Leaf that would be a bit easier. A 150 miles battery is still going to have over 100 miles on it when it's capacity is down to 70%, the point considered when the battery has passed it's useful life. That's still far more than the daily 30 miles average, and would be plenty for my weekend trips.

The Bolt is here and now. It is honestly a decent car IMO. But it is smaller and much more expensive. And with an extra range that I personally wouldn't use on a regular basis.

The Tesla 3 is also a very nice car. It has the Tesla SC network. But it is more expensive and smaller than the Leaf. I don't see how this car could appeal to family oriented people like me.

To sum it up in my own personal controversial opinion, if you want a fancy sports car that you can brag about how far it goes and take it on long trips, then get a Tesla. If you want one now and can't afford a Tesla S or wait for a 3, then get a Bolt. And if you want a budget minded family car that, no, won't let you take your family out of state every weekend, but would be a good soccer-mom car, then get a Leaf.

Let the best car win. But I think both the Tesla 3 and Leaf 2 as well as the Chevy Bolt are all great cars. But there are strong opinions one way and the other because in a way we're comparing apples to oranges. It's almost like trying to compare a coupe and a station wagon.

Very well said in my opinion. I lurk and frequent on any number of EV sites/groups/Facebook, etc. and I admit that for me personally, I am getting tired of seeing Tesla mentioned in every new story about an EV. I completely appreciate what they have done to the automotive industry, but as you said, everyone has their own tastes and budgets. It would be like the new Toyota Corolla coming out and people saying how stupid you would be not to buy a BMW 3 series or Porsche (or whatever) instead - two different cars at different prices for different people.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

What do you expect? That is just another Tesla propaganda site like Electrek, InsideEVs, etc.

I expected as much, from a site called "teslarati.com". Just pointing out the obvious I guess.

Concerns about carrying a bike must be from people who have never used a bike rack like this:

I do have a setup like that on the CMax. It is great for carrying the family and our bikes. But the CMax is my wife's car and sometimes I go mountain biking with friends after work. Hence I have also thrown the bike in the back of the Leaf. It's really no harder than the bike rack, once you learn the process. The much bigger issue is putting a dirty bike inside the car after riding the trails. I console myself that the 2012 Leaf isn't worth much, so I don't bother worrying about keeping the interior pristine. Plus, with kids often in the back seat, it is far from pristine to begin with.

 

[lorenfb]

Anybody still on the fence?

I don't like Model 3 front.

I didn't notice that bulge above the front fenders until this was posted. Good thing my daughter wants a black Model 3.
http://forums.redflagdeals.com/tesla-model-s-x-y-roadster-discussion-1773493/219/#p28198892

Results in the same aerodynamic effect as the present Leaf but doesn't standout, i.e. no lights in that area
and the same overall vehicle color. That makes a huge difference in appearance over the present Leaf.

 

[SageBrush]

I have always liked the BMW i3. My wife affectionately calls it a Panda. The LEAF2 in white has that vibe too.
I just don't care enough about the front looks to think about it too much, and it certainly is not going to determine my purchase. That said, sometimes I like the front of the Model 3 and sometimes I do not. To my view darker colors improve the appearance so I might buy the blue.

 

[internalaudit]

I think if a person wants a Tesla, he should get a Tesla. If he wants a Bolt, then get a Bolt. If he wants a Leaf, then get a Leaf.

The 2018 Leaf is one of the cheapest. If you have a budget that should be appealing. It's a daily driver family car, one that can do far more than the average 30 miles per day. If you need something to get you and your family from point A to point B on a daily basis, as long as that daily basis isn't 80 miles there and 80 miles back, then the Leaf would be an appropriate choice. I currently haul around up to 4 other adults usually up to 30 miles per day, which seems perfect for my current Leaf. I also take it 70 miles one way (charging at the destination) on the weekends, also with up to 5 passengers total, which is stretching it. If I had a 30kW or a 40kW Leaf that would be a bit easier. A 150 miles battery is still going to have over 100 miles on it when it's capacity is down to 70%, the point considered when the battery has passed it's useful life. That's still far more than the daily 30 miles average, and would be plenty for my weekend trips.

The Bolt is here and now. It is honestly a decent car IMO. But it is smaller and much more expensive. And with an extra range that I personally wouldn't use on a regular basis.

The Tesla 3 is also a very nice car. It has the Tesla SC network. But it is more expensive and smaller than the Leaf. I don't see how this car could appeal to family oriented people like me.

To sum it up in my own personal controversial opinion, if you want a fancy sports car that you can brag about how far it goes and take it on long trips, then get a Tesla. If you want one now and can't afford a Tesla S or wait for a 3, then get a Bolt. And if you want a budget minded family car that, no, won't let you take your family out of state every weekend, but would be a good soccer-mom car, then get a Leaf.

Let the best car win. But I think both the Tesla 3 and Leaf 2 as well as the Chevy Bolt are all great cars. But there are strong opinions one way and the other because in a way we're comparing apples to oranges. It's almost like trying to compare a coupe and a station wagon.

I want the range (need 200 miles at the very least to cover that one 130 mile commute each week), insignificant battery degradation, and just a little of the performance of the Tesla but want the TCO (repairs, parts, service availability) to be Nissan or GM-like. I don't care much about depreciation as I will hold on to the car for as long as it's economical. So the 60 kWh Leaf 2.0 might fix that range anxiety especially with the faster charging option (100 kW chademo) and perhaps that battery degradation has been remedied somehow.

AWD is nice to have too if my child plans to drive the EV around but it's not necessary, unless we go for a Model 3.

I think for me, it will boil down to the wording of the extended warranties on these >200 mile vehicles. I've been leaning towards Honda's and Toyota ICEV and they haven't failed me, even with extended warranty work. Cost of ownership on these cars, even when bought new, have been way below average with little issues cropping up - - 02 Civic 5MT, 11 Accord 5AT and 16 RAV4H.

 

[IssacZachary]

AWD is nice to have too if my child plans to drive the EV around but it's not necessary, unless we go for a Model 3.

Personally I would never give a learning driver an AWD. I've lived (and still live) high in the Colorado mountains for my entire life in places where snow dumps that are waist deep are common, have driven here for over 20 years, including several years as a commercial bus driver, and have never seen any great advantage of AWD or 4WD unless you have a long unmaintained driveway. The majority of those that end up in the ditch, flipped over and wrecked are the ones with AWD. It's much better in my experience to invest in some decent snow tires. AWD only helps when your stopped, that is, when you're stuck in the ditch. Other than that it only helps you accelerate, which is not at all a necessity in my opinion. Once the car is moving down any road AWD does nothing unless you're pushing a snowplow or pushing through deep snow, which if it's that deep you shouldn't be on the road anyway. It doesn't help the car corner nor does it help the car brake. The tendency to spin tires in a FWD is a good reminder to any driver, especially new ones, that the road is slippery. But AWD drivers don't feel the danger because they suffer less slip during acceleration and end up smashed into the rear of the next car at the next stoplight. Winter tires, studded or not, on a FWD offer the best happy medium. A little better acceleration, but also much better cornering and braking.

Ok. So I got stuck in the snow once this last winter in my Leaf with tire chains on when I tried to drive through a deep snow drift. But still, after owing several vehicles, from AWD cars, trucks and vans, to RWD cars, trucks and vans to FWD cars, trucks and vans (yes, there are FWD trucks out there that were made by VW) I feel any novice driver should get a FWD and spend the rest on snow tires. Anyone else can get AWD, but only as a luxury, nothing else, so that you can accelerate faster when the light turns green or so you can track through areas you really shouldn't. Only if I lived in a place that gets deep snow with no snow removal then I would get an AWD SUV or truck, and also put snow tires on it and haul around snow chains for all four tires. But an AWD car is only a luxury to me.

 

[Nubo]

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

The author tries so hard to be nice to the Leaf, but his bias sure shines through. He gives lip service to some advantages of the Leaf, but dives into full detail on all of the advantages of the Model 3. The big ones to me seem to be availability, price, reliability, and utility.

The groupthink in the Tesla community is strong. It's like a cross between a country club and "Lord of the Flies".

Much prefer the LEAF community. More down-to-earth, serious debates and criticisms are not squelched, members feel free to give Nissan hell for mis-steps.

And I'd chalk that up as another point in favor of LEAF Gen 2. I couldn't stand years of perusing the Tesla forums to stay informed.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

The author tries so hard to be nice to the Leaf, but his bias sure shines through. He gives lip service to some advantages of the Leaf, but dives into full detail on all of the advantages of the Model 3. The big ones to me seem to be availability, price, reliability, and utility.

The groupthink in the Tesla community is strong. It's like a cross between a country club and "Lord of the Flies".

Much prefer the LEAF community. More down-to-earth, serious debates and criticisms are not squelched, members feel free to give Nissan hell for mis-steps.

And I'd chalk that up as another point in favor of LEAF Gen 2. I couldn't stand years of perusing the Tesla forums to stay informed.

You know, I've never considered internet forums to be a contributing factor to such a large purchase decision. In a way, it's a form of post-purchase support.

 

[LeftieBiker]

You know, I've never considered internet forums to be a contributing factor to such a large purchase decision. In a way, it's a form of post-purchase support.

I don't have a position in this M3 vs Leaf 2 argument, but I will say this: I bought a new, leftover Zero SR a couple of years ago, only to find it riddled with defects. Zero wouldn't even deal with me as a customer directly, so I was forced to ask for help in the Zero forums. Those guys offered very little support (with a couple of exceptions) but lots of sarcasm and ill-informed suggestions like "So get them to take it back!" The Leaf owner community really does help when you run into problems.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Concerns about carrying a bike must be from people who have never used a bike rack like this:

Once I got that on my vehicles (I always keep one vehicle with a hitch) I just look with pity on people who carry bikes in any other way. It's by leagues the best way to carry a bike. I know the model 3 will have a trailer hitch available.

I like hitch-mount bike racks and was thinking of using one with a Model 3. However there was no mention of a hitch option in the Model 3 release information. I am skeptical that I can fit my large mountain bike in a 3, although it is very easy to do in my S.

A downside of hitch-mount bike racks for EVs is a large increase in drag and reduction in range, although that only matters on road trips.

 

[internalaudit]

AWD is nice to have too if my child plans to drive the EV around but it's not necessary, unless we go for a Model 3.

Personally I would never give a learning driver an AWD. I've lived (and still live) high in the Colorado mountains for my entire life in places where snow dumps that are waist deep are common, have driven here for over 20 years, including several years as a commercial bus driver, and have never seen any great advantage of AWD or 4WD unless you have a long unmaintained driveway. The majority of those that end up in the ditch, flipped over and wrecked are the ones with AWD. It's much better in my experience to invest in some decent snow tires. AWD only helps when your stopped, that is, when you're stuck in the ditch. Other than that it only helps you accelerate, which is not at all a necessity in my opinion. Once the car is moving down any road AWD does nothing unless you're pushing a snowplow or pushing through deep snow, which if it's that deep you shouldn't be on the road anyway. It doesn't help the car corner nor does it help the car brake. The tendency to spin tires in a FWD is a good reminder to any driver, especially new ones, that the road is slippery. But AWD drivers don't feel the danger because they suffer less slip during acceleration and end up smashed into the rear of the next car at the next stoplight. Winter tires, studded or not, on a FWD offer the best happy medium. A little better acceleration, but also much better cornering and braking.

Ok. So I got stuck in the snow once this last winter in my Leaf with tire chains on when I tried to drive through a deep snow drift. But still, after owing several vehicles, from AWD cars, trucks and vans, to RWD cars, trucks and vans to FWD cars, trucks and vans (yes, there are FWD trucks out there that were made by VW) I feel any novice driver should get a FWD and spend the rest on snow tires. Anyone else can get AWD, but only as a luxury, nothing else, so that you can accelerate faster when the light turns green or so you can track through areas you really shouldn't. Only if I lived in a place that gets deep snow with no snow removal then I would get an AWD SUV or truck, and also put snow tires on it and haul around snow chains for all four tires. But an AWD car is only a luxury to me.

Thanks for your advice. Will still get decent winter tires if I pursue AWD. I always have on our FWD and even our AWD RAV4H.

With the 60 kWh Leaf, only the AWD feature is missing if I compare to a Model 3 and potential issue of battery degradation. I have no need for 5.6 sec 0-60.

Seems apart from Nissan and Tesla, all other makers have very limited inventory of EVs, at least here in Canada.

 

[2011RedLeaf]

Tattoogunman
For covering 10 -15 miles daily, I agree the cost of EV is more than the 75 cents worth of gasoline.
FWIW - a bicycle in decent weather if you are not carrying much stuff is a good environmental option for that range. (Don't know if that is safe in your area of Plano -- I get antsy driving through the DFW area.

 

[Tsiah]

I don't like Model 3 front.

It's going to be a lot easier to clean and it is probably more aerodynamic.

 

[Tsiah]

Looks more like a Porsche 911 turbo, to me.

That's what I've been thinking about the model 3 too.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Blog comparison of 3 vs leaf 2.
https://forums.teslarati.com/threads/tesla-model-3-vs-2018-nissan-leaf-a-side-by-side-comparison.4511/

The author tries so hard to be nice to the Leaf, but his bias sure shines through. He gives lip service to some advantages of the Leaf, but dives into full detail on all of the advantages of the Model 3. The big ones to me seem to be availability, price, reliability, and utility.

The groupthink in the Tesla community is strong. It's like a cross between a country club and "Lord of the Flies".

Much prefer the LEAF community. More down-to-earth, serious debates and criticisms are not squelched, members feel free to give Nissan hell for mis-steps.

And I'd chalk that up as another point in favor of LEAF Gen 2. I couldn't stand years of perusing the Tesla forums to stay informed.

This is a fair point. I post on tesla forums also and they are rabid in their defense of the brand, as if they are being paid to be brand ambassadors, yet I know they aren't paid.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

Concerns about carrying a bike must be from people who have never used a bike rack like this:

Once I got that on my vehicles (I always keep one vehicle with a hitch) I just look with pity on people who carry bikes in any other way. It's by leagues the best way to carry a bike. I know the model 3 will have a trailer hitch available.

I like hitch-mount bike racks and was thinking of using one with a Model 3. However there was no mention of a hitch option in the Model 3 release information. I am skeptical that I can fit my large mountain bike in a 3, although it is very easy to do in my S.

A downside of hitch-mount bike racks for EVs is a large increase in drag and reduction in range, although that only matters on road trips.

Nothing "official", but when I google "elon musk model 3 trailer hitch" I see some thread references to people saying musk has said there will be a hitch option. It's also very possible an after market company will create one. That's how I got one on the prius before Toyota had hitches--or at least before they had class III hitches (2" receiver).

 

[TonyWilliams]

The 2019 Nissan LEAF e+ will have at least 225 miles (362 km) EPA range thanks to NCM 811 battery cells to be made by LG Chem.

 

[RegGuheert]

The 2019 Nissan LEAF e+ will have at least 225 miles (362 km) EPA range thanks to NCM 811 battery cells to be made by LG Chem.

Here's a PushEvs article about that. Also,here is an InsideEVs article about on the topic.

It's interesting that LG Chemistry is that far ahead of other vendors in terms of NMC cathode materials. I wonder if LG Chem's Chemistry will also have better or worse calendar and/or cycle life. According to the chart in this article, NMC 811 is less stable than NMC 622. The PushEvs article hints that the 60 kWh LEAF may include a TMS:

The longer range version 2019 Nissan Leaf’s battery pack will probably be slightly bigger, not only to have its capacity increased to 60 kWh, but also to have space for a TMS (Thermal Management System).