Will dealers be allowed to gouge us?

[SilverLeaf]

Welcome to EV Customer Support, Meg will be right with you.

Meg:
Thank you for contacting Nissan Electric Vehicle Customer Support, my name is Meg. How may I help you today Art?

Art:
I reserved my Leaf on 4/20. I have not as yet selected a dealership. Is there any reason to rush that choice? Any benefit? I am evaluating several dealers to determine which will best serve my interest.

Meg:
We appreciate your reservation of the Nissan LEAF Art. I would be happy to help you with that!

Meg:
Once you make an order, later on this year in the fall, you will be given a list of dealerships that have agreed to service and support the LEAF. At that point you will choose which dealer you would like to do business with and then finish the process by taking care of the financing with them. There is no reason to worry about this part and nothing to rush. If you would like to evaluate which ones you are most interested in doing business now then that is your choice, but like I already stated that part of the process will not start until the fall time frame.

 

[planet4ever]

Art: I reserved my Leaf on 4/20.
<snip>
Meg: Once you make an order, later on this year in the fall, you will be given a list of dealerships that have agreed to service and support the LEAF. At that point you will choose which dealer you would like to do business with and then finish the process by taking care of the financing with them.

Oh, I think I like the sound of that. "Fall" means September through November, right? So those of us who reserved on 4/20 are likely to "finish the process" (i.e. drive a Leaf home) before December 1?

Well, I can dream, can't I?

 

[DeaneG]

Fall ends Dec 21! And don't forget this is a "marketing" fall.

 

[AndyH]

Fall ends Dec 21! And don't forget this is a "marketing" fall.

As long as it's not an 'Aptera' fall...

 

[hill]

From personal experience, I can tell you with gospel certainty how dealers "sell". The manufacturer builds them, then the dealer sells them. Period. There is a MASSIVE divide between the car builder, and the car dealer. They (Dealers) are their own separate entity. Although the manufacturer can TELL a dealer not to gouge ... it has no more weight than if you & I picket in front of the dealer for lower prices. NOTHING on earth says you HAVE to own the latest & greatest, and Mr. Dealer knows it. They will get what ever the market can bear. If that means you will have to grab your ankles ... so be it. Walk away, and there'll be someone else right behind you to take your spot. If not, only then will the dealer drop the price. This is exactly why I wait a full 10 months (minimum) after the latest & greatest hits the store. The Leaf will likely be the 1st time I break my own rule. Thus, I may be the poor sucker behind you, if indignantly you step out of line due to (the high likelihood of) gouging. Welcome to capitalism.

 

[garygid]

I will give up the LEAF if I cannot find a "fair" dealer. I do not "need" it that badly right now.

Even then, spending the "big bucks" just might be unwise at this time.

If I take my LEAF purchase to SB Nissan, the local dealer does NOT get to sell it to the next in line, it simply gets shipped to a different dealer and my local dealer gets "zip".

At least, that is how I hope it will work.

What do you think?

 

[jhm614]

I will give up the LEAF if I cannot find a "fair" dealer. I do not "need" it that badly right now.

Even then, spending the "big bucks" just might be unwise at this time.

If I take my LEAF purchase to SB Nissan, the local dealer does NOT get to sell it to the next in line, it simply gets shipped to a different dealer and my local dealer gets "zip".

At least, that is how I hope it will work.

What do you think?

I don't think it will work that way. I think once a Nissan allocates a car to a dealer, it ships to that dealer. If the customer passes on it, the dealer can sell it to another customer.

 

[Rat]

I don't think it will work that way. I think once a Nissan allocates a car to a dealer, it ships to that dealer. If the customer passes on it, the dealer can sell it to another customer.

I have to believe this is true. It wouldn't make economic sense to ship the cars all over the place. I suspect that the reservation queue has been researched and designed enough so that each dealer will have a sufficient base of Leaf res # holders so that training the sales and staff and mechanics and stocking parts departments is warranted. That means each dealer will initially have say 5 or 12 or 30 people with res numbers waiting for their Leafs. The first shipment will be maybe 3 - configured the way the 3 with the lowest res # ordered them. Packages and financing will already have been worked out before shipment. If you pass when you are called due to perceived gouging, financial problems or any other reason, the dealer will just call up the next one in line and get his or her configuration and financing locked in, order, and get a different 3 cars at first. Those go to the ones who have finalized the deal already. Then the next 3, then the next 5, etc. What isn't clear is whether you forfeit your place altogether, or you get recontacted when the dealer gets to the end of the res holders. My guess is the dealer will just keep going with new people as long as there are more res holders and not go back to those who passed up the chance. Prices aren't going to go down as long as there is a queue, and considering that there seems to be a growing backlog of new reservations coming in faster than Nissan manufacturing ability can grow, you won't get another shot at it until you get another reservation number and then you will still be faced with the gouge price unless maybe you choose another dealer and that one is more reasonable. Even that may not be possible since Nissan has made clear that there will be only one reservation per household. You could probably recontact the original dealer you chose and tell them you've changed your mind and maybe still get it at the price they quoted, if you're lucky, but otherwise you're out of luck. I don't see how it could work any other way if the dealerships are purely independent from Nissan.

The only way I can see to work the system is at the time of choosing your dealer (pre-shipment). That's when you have to go to multiple dealers (if you can find two in your area) and negotiate everything before committing to a dealer. Let's hope they have a demo so that you can test drive at that point, because they are going to want you to sign and put down a deposit probably in order for them to order your car. The different dealers may actually compete with each other rather than conspire to fix prices (with a wink and a nod, of course, not officially on paper). Another remote possibility is if someone defaults on the initial purchase and his car that's already been shipped in is a color or model that isn't wanted by anyone on that dealer's assigned res. holder list; then you might be able to get a deal (i.e. MSRP) on that particular Leaf. I'm hoping that Nissan exerts enough pressure through allotments, etc., or Nissan owned dealerships that this scenario doesn't play out and they all (or my local ones at least) just offer MSRP, but I doubt it.

There's even a chance that the dealer will call up the first 10 and say "We're going to get only 3 Leafs in December, and 10 of you who want one. How much are you willing to pay to be one of those 3?" And the then when the bidding war is over, order the first three based on high bid. Then do the same until the list is exhausted.

 

[jhm614]

There's even a chance that the dealer will call up the first 10 and say "We're going to get only 3 Leafs in December, and 10 of you who want one. How much are you willing to pay to be one of those 3?" And the then when the bidding war is over, order the first three based on high bid. Then do the same until the list is exhausted.

That would be brutal.

I am going to attempt to negotiate my price when I choose a dealer. "Are you going to charge more than MSRP?" "Can I get that in writing?"

 

[evnow]

I don't think it will work that way. I think once a Nissan allocates a car to a dealer, it ships to that dealer. If the customer passes on it, the dealer can sell it to another customer.

The way it will work is (IIRC)
- In August or so each of us will go to a dealer and decide on the price etc. I guess we would put down more money and sign some kind of a contract. This is where we can select the dealer that fits us best - if we don't like a dealer after talking to him, go to another. But, the important this is - the price is negotiated and fixed at this point.
- In December (or later) Nissan ships the car to the dealer and you pick up the car paying the pre-negotiated price.
- If the customer passes at that point (i.e. after the car has been shipped to the dealer) - then I'm not sure whether
+ the car goes to the next person in queue at that dealership or (likely)
+ the car goes to the next person in queue in that market or (likely)
+ the dealer can sell to anyone he wants (unlikely)

 

[mitch672]

maybe so, but like I've said, it's JUST A CAR. Every single person on the list can get along without it, or already has another car currently. If enough people refuse to be gouged, the list will get short quickly. paying over MSRP in this economy isn't the smartest thing to do. Also, word will get back to Nissan (and probably quickly) which dealers are marking it up over MSRP, don't be surprised if they have their Leaf allocation cut.. and suggest anyone reserved at that dealership select another nearby dealership. Nissan does not want this to go badly, and get a reputation that they are taking advantage of the early adopters, because they are the ones who will spread the word on the Leaf to the rest of the "doubting public". One happy customer will tell 10-20 people about his experience, an unhappy customer will tells hundreds.

I have a 2010 Prius, it's perfectly fine, I can live without a Leaf for the forseeable future, so could almost all on the list, Nissan dealers should not confuse "want" with "need", they are 2 very different things.

It would really be bad if this gouging started, and all of the sudden their are hundreds of unsold Leafs on dealer lots, because the smarter early adopters said "no thanks" to being gouged. You really do need to remember, the general public has almost no interest in EVs, or in buying the first mass produced EV to market.

It could go very badly for Nissan, and within a short time, there will be many EV & Plug in Hybrid competitors on the market (Volt, Tesla model S, Toyota Plug in Prius in 2012, etc), plus they are trying to ramp up to 150,000 per year starting when they open the Tenessee plant in mid to late 2012, that could be difficult to do with a "gouging" reputation established for the Leaf

 

[hill]

I will give up the LEAF if I cannot find a "fair" dealer. I do not "need" it that badly right now.

Even then, spending the "big bucks" just might be unwise at this time.

If I take my LEAF purchase to SB Nissan, the local dealer does NOT get to sell it to the next in line, it simply gets shipped to a different dealer and my local dealer gets "zip".

At least, that is how I hope it will work.

What do you think?

I don't think it will work that way. I think once a Nissan allocates a car to a dealer, it ships to that dealer. If the customer passes on it, the dealer can sell it to another customer.

That's true. I had a very special "deal" from another Manufacture on a "latest/greatest" model. When the vehicle arrived at the dealer, I had a given time to pony up the cash. When I gave up my spot, the vehicle was sold the same day to another.

 

[daniel]

From personal experience, I can tell you with gospel certainty how dealers "sell". The manufacturer builds them, then the dealer sells them. Period. There is a MASSIVE divide between the car builder, and the car dealer. They (Dealers) are their own separate entity. Although the manufacturer can TELL a dealer not to gouge ... it has no more weight than if you & I picket in front of the dealer for lower prices. NOTHING on earth says you HAVE to own the latest & greatest, and Mr. Dealer knows it. They will get what ever the market can bear. If that means you will have to grab your ankles ... so be it. Walk away, and there'll be someone else right behind you to take your spot...

I believe you are mistaken in the case of the leaf. Nissan has said that we, the buyers on the early-reservation list, will be given an authorization to buy a Leaf. We will take that authorization to the dealer of our choice and negotiate a price. If we don't like the price, we can take our authorization to another dealer. Thus the dealer only gets a car if the buyer is satisfied with the terms that dealer offers.

This is the opposite to the way the Prius was sold: Dealers had an allocation of cars and could do what they liked with them. With the demand being high, dealers could charge what the market would bear.

My local Nissan dealer has told me that he will charge MSRP and no tricks to up the cost, and I've heard that others have promised the same. Some dealers will try to charge more, but most will charge MSRP. Just be sure you understand the terms when you negotiate. Watch out for add-ons, and if you finance, educate yourself first about the pitfalls.

As for the "gospel certainty" in your post, under the circumstances I think that comment is appropriate. Different people have different opinion about how reliable the Gospels are.

 

[evnow]

I believe you are mistaken in the case of the leaf. Nissan has said that we, the buyers on the early-reservation list, will be given an authorization to buy a Leaf. We will take that authorization to the dealer of our choice and negotiate a price. If we don't like the price, we can take our authorization to another dealer. Thus the dealer only gets a car if the buyer is satisfied with the terms that dealer offers.

Absolutely.

The only way a dealer can gouge a Leafer is if the Leafer doesn't care.

I can imagine headlines in the paper saying - "Nissan Leaf Dealers Gouge On Tax Dollars". Not pretty.

 

[garygid]

daniel,
I believe you are correct.

The real question is what place, after making "the deal", will we get in the manufacturing and delivering queue?

If I reserved first, but am a week or two "late" getting a dealer committed, will I fall way back in the delivery queue?

Or, does my very-early Reservation actually mean something?

 

[AndyH]

daniel,
I believe you are correct.

The real question is what place, after making "the deal", will we get in the manufacturing and delivering queue?

If I reserved first, but am a week or two "late" getting a dealer committed, will I fall way back in the delivery queue?

Or, does my very-early Reservation actually mean something?

The problem with this line of question right from the start is that our $99 is NOT a deposit and does not generate a place in a queue. The early email registration allowed us to be first to pay a $99 'intent' fee. Those of us in the first group might expect to have the opportunity to place a deposit and reserve a car. It's the signed paperwork that sets our place in a delivery queue.

So at this point there is no queue and no reservations - only a group allowed to get into the queue before the general public.

 

[Jimmydreams]

Or, does my very-early Reservation actually mean something?

Gary...

My guess is that the purchasing methods will take a long time. There has to be the inspection/installation of your home charger, evaluation of your driving needs, etc.

I'm thinking that your position in line (when you actually gave them $99) will dictate 2 things: when they contact you for the start of the 'process' and it will also guarantee you your 'spot' in line. In other words, Nissan will have months of advance prep-work done with you before the actual car is delivered. Any delays will be absorbed by that process time-line. So if you're slow choosing a final dealer? No worries, you have 2 months to do it. Can't schedule the install of your charger because you're away on business? No worries, you have THREE months to get that done. Etc. etc. The time-line will be long enough to get everything done before 'your' car is delivered to the US.

I'm guessing this will also include any trade-ins, etc. Each step of the process must be completed or be 'in work' before the next step is allowed to commence, but there is so much time between now and December that I don't think time will be anyone's enemy.

Nissan has said that it is "first come, first served" in the reservation line, at least for the initial roll-out cities. I think your very early reservation means everything.

 

[garygid]

So, you think that getting my dealer to submit finished paperwork in the first few minutes of being "allowed" to do so ... will mean nothing to get me an early LEAF, if I am late in the Reservation line?

And, being slow to "deal" will not jepordize an early Reservation's chances of getting one of the earliest LEAFs?

Presumably an out-of-first-area Reservation will have to wait for in-area deliveries.

To get one of the first 200 LEAFs in CA, assuming one has an "early" CA Reservation, what "actions" do you think will be "required"?

 

[Jimmydreams]

So, you think that getting my dealer to submit finished paperwork in the first few minutes of being "allowed" to do so ... will mean nothing to get me an early LEAF, if I am late in the Reservation line?

And, being slow to "deal" will not jepordize an early Reservation's chances of getting one of the earliest LEAFs?

Presumably an out-of-first-area Reservation will have to wait for in-area deliveries.

To get one of the first 200 LEAFs in CA, assuming one has an "early" CA Reservation, what "actions" do you think will be "required"?

Gary...

I don't think you will be able to do ANY official paperwork until Nissan calls you. Anything you do with a dealer between now and then in unofficial and likely won't mean squat when Nissan starts calling reservation holders. And the list of who they call and when is, as I understand it, first come-first served based on the list of reservation holders in your area. You may be #900 on the entire list, but if you're #5 of those in OC (LA or whatever your 'area' is), then you'll be the 5th person they call in OC or LA. Then and ONLY then will any numbers, deals, estimates or anything else be made.

To get one of the first 200 Leafs, (assuming LA or OC gets 100 of them) then you'd need to already be in the first 100 in OC or LA on the reservation list. If you're #101 in LA and LA only has 100 cars, it remains to be seen if you'll be able to come to San Diego (for example) to buy. I would think that whatever area you're in will dictate what happens. Even though LA and SD are close, they may be treated differently and no 'cross-area buys' allowed. We don't know.

At least, that's my understanding of the process.

 

[planet4ever]

To get one of the first 200 LEAFs in CA, assuming one has an "early" CA Reservation, what "actions" do you think will be "required"?

Move 60 miles further south?

[Just joking, but I might have to move further than that.]