Would the Leaf fit my needs?

[Klayfish]

Hey all! I'm shopping around for a new daily driver and want to get input from Leaf owners. Without making some ridiculously long post, let me try to describe my situation in a nutshell.

First and foremost, I'm a car guy. As a family guy with 3 kids, my budget is small, so the days of wild toys are gone. I have an old Miata for a toy, which I love. My daily driver currently is an old Saab wagon, an even older Volvo wagon prior. They've served their purpose, but I'm looking for something new (or nearly new). Reliability and efficiency are tops on my list. I've always been drawn to unique/different/quirky cars. I like not seeing myself coming and going 100 times on my way to work. So as much as I love the Accord/Civic, etc…and could be very happy with one, if I can find something unique, awesome. I was following a Leaf home the other day. Until then, the thought never really crossed my mind, but the more I followed it, the more I pondered the idea.

Here's my driving situation. I live in rural PA, "cow country". My commute is exactly 25 miles each way. All country road, no highways. 85% is uncrowded two lane roads, where I cruise at 45-60mph. The other 15% is "city" type driving, with several stop lights in that part. Our climate is typical northeast. Summer can be hot, winter is cold. I'm not an AC or heat hog, but would certainly use them on really hot or cold days. The car would spend overnight in my garage, probably 10+ hours.

I've seen there are several tax incentives on these cars. $7500 from the government (haven't gone through the fine print, but I will), and PA offers a $3500 rebate. Here are my questions:

First and foremost, would the Leaf fit my lifestyle? How much would I drain the battery on my 50 mile round trip? While I have come to like luxury touches, I don't need them. Even the base S has what I'd want…auto climate control, power windows/locks, heated seats, usable stereo. Is the Leaf interesting/fun to drive...not in a "woohoo fun" sports car way, but at least an engaging experience? Reliability issues? Nissan good with warranty stuff? I'm thinking of purchase, not lease.

Unless my math is wrong, I use over $2000/year in gas currently. At home, my utility charges $.0875/kWh. The way I calculated it, the fuel savings would come fairly close to paying for my monthly car payment (after I put down my deposit I've been saving). Heck, I'm pretty sure I could plug into 120V here at work. Very tempting. The only 240 service I currently have in my house is for my dryer…which actually happens to be right next to a window that looks at our driveway. While I can hang a ceiling fan, I'm not an electrician, so any work needed I'd have a professional do.

Thanks for any input you can offer.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Sounds like a good fit.
I would lease not buy. Most of the cost of the car is in the battery and Nissan refuses to give a replacement price for the battery. You can't buy one no way no how. Leases are very cheap and protect you from improvements in battery technology.

The Leaf's range is VERY dependent on speed. Its range reduces rapidly as you do faster. Around 55-60 you get pretty good range, but in my area where its often 75mph, range can be only 60 miles. At 55 you should be over 70 mile range. In town the car usually does even better.

The 2013 S is a nice configuration. The only reason to consider the 2013 SV is that it includes a heat pump which is much more efficient providing heat when its not too cold outside. That fits our winters, not sure about yours. The more power the heat uses, the less range you have.

For that commute, I think you'd have enough time at home to charge the car. I figure 5 miles of range per hour of charge at least up to 80% charge. Going from 80-100% charges slower.

240v charging is much faster, running about 25 miles of range per hour of charge. The base S comes with a 3.3 kw charger which is 12 miles of range/hour of charge. There a charger option for the S or the trim levels all come with a 6.6kw charger which provides roughly 25 miles or range/hr.

Forgot to comment about fun to drive. You should definitely drive one. I think its a blast. Jetsons car. High torque from a start. Instant response to the throttle. Eerily quiet. Spooky driving slow with windows closed and no fan... there's practically no sound at all. At high speeds, road and wind noise kick it, still very quiet.

 

[adric22]

The commute you have to work is ideal. The Leaf should be able to handle 50 mile round trip easily on a road like you describe with little traffic and speeds under 55 mph. And if there is any chance your employer will allow you to plug in to a 110V outlet at work, you could leave work with a full battery for the return trip each day.

 

[FredinNY]

New owner here!
As mentioned in the prior post, I would consider looking at the SV as well.
- I purchased, and as a rule we're charging @ 80% which gives us somewhere in the mid 60-mile range. Everyone in the house is fighting over who's going to drive it next!
- $7,500 Fed Tax Credit is great, but remember you need to have $7,500 in actual tax to take full advantage. It's great that PA gives you a Rebate (not so lucky in NY).
- I put in a charging station at home...you can easily purchase one a Amazon or Home Depot. If you have a lot of prep work that needs to be done for the electrical (running wire, conduit, etc.), you can do much of the grunt work yourself & just bring in the professional to do the hook-ups for you.

 

[Petecomp1]

dm33 reply is right-on. Here is my own experience: I leased a 2013 SV (the only way to go until battery issues are resolved). I drive ~50 miles every other day or so. This is 30 miles freeway and the balance <40 mph secondary roads. I always keep it at 65 mph on freeway (so many trucks, it's easy). If I leave home with 100% battery, I always have about 40-50% battery when I get home. So, you can be assured a 50-mile round trip as you describe will be even better than my range.
I am glad I got the SV as I was willing to pay for the improved heater but you may not need that. I did not get the quick charge option as there are no QC stations in this area. I did purchase and install the AV 6KW charging station in my garage which allows me to make 2 or 3, 50-mile trips in a day if I need to (<2 hours to charge up from 50% to 100%).
Hope this helps you. The key is, you MUST consider the Leaf to be a local runabout only, and keep a "regular" car for longer trips. Some folks think this is a deal-killer but, for me, planning my driving as I plan any other resource-reliant activity is just a routine chore. The fuel savings makes my lease payment, so there's really no increase in $$ outgo for the Leaf. Another plus: no worries about the ever-increasing numbers on gas-station signs!

 

[smkettner]

Yes LEAF will work for you. The drive is amazingly smooth, powerful and quiet. I recommend leasing to avoid tax hassles and battery unknown life issues. Let the fuel savings make the lease payment. With 50 mile commute you might squeek by on 120v L1 charging but you will soon want 240v L2.

 

[jhm614]

Ditto on the comments about going the leasing route instead of buying. Also, consider the SV for the heat pump. The resistive heater kills my range in the winter.

 

[Klayfish]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone!

The reason I was thinking purchase instead of lease is mileage restrictions, lease "disposal fee", and nitpicking on turn in if the car gets a stone chip. I work in auto insurance claims, I see a lot of bad things from dealers. Good point though about not dealing with battery issues…but doesn't Nissan give an extended warranty on the battery?

Guess I'll have to go look at them. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a nicely equiped car, but price rules for me. Things like in dash nav don't do anything for me, I actually prefer my 5 year old Garmin I stick on my windshield. I'd be looking for the best deal I can get.

I'm fortunate with my commute. The main roadway I use goes from country town to a small "city", it's nothing but open road. I leave super early in the morning, so no traffic. Even going home, it's light. Over a 17-18 mile stretch, there are about 3 total traffic lights. Sometimes I hit them all green and I'll cruise non-stop at 50mph. I always exceed the EPA mpg ratings of the cars I have.

Luckily, while the car would serve as my daily work commuter and probably a local errand runner, I wouldn't need it for long trips. My wife has a conventional car that seats 5, plus we have a minivan for really long trips. And being a car guy, I always have an old car or two hanging around the house.

When I can get some free time, I'll have to go test drive one. I think we'll be OK on the tax part, we pay a fortune!

 

[garymelora]

When calculating whether you have enough tax burden to get the entire $7,500 credit, take into account that the $3,500 you get from PA will be taxable on your federal return.

 

[cgaydos]

When calculating whether you have enough tax burden to get the entire $7,500 credit, take into account that the $3,500 you get from PA will be taxable on your federal return.

Yes, also it appears to be $3000, no longer $3500, and there are only a few hundred left for this year:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/alternative_fuels_incentive_grant/10492/alternative_fuel_vehicles/553206" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is where it gets tricky: because you have a state with a substantial rebate which is not available for leased cars (per the above article) it may be more economical to buy. But, if you go that route you're going to have to do a lot more paperwork on your own.

Otherwise the LEAF sounds like a perfect fit for your situation. I would recommend an SV, not an S, just for the more efficient heat pump. The S has the same heater as we have in the 2011 and 2012 model years and it can be an energy hog on very cold days. Also, when looking for a home charger consider evseupgrade.com - many posts here about that product.

 

[GRA]

I'd say you're in pretty good shape for a LEAF given your no-freeway commute, but agree with others that you should probably opt for an SV to get the heat pump, unless you're _sure_ you can reliably charge at work. Even though it won't help your range much in the dead of winter, it will spring and fall. And the 6.6 kW charger that's included in the SV (optional on the S) could be valuable too, although it won't matter much just for commuting. Whether you think there will be any DCQCs installed in your area anytime soon will determine whether you should spring for the Quick Charging option.

I'd opt for installing a dedicated 240V circuit and L2 EVSE rather than sticking with L1, although you could try that out for a while. Be aware that you'll be needing more charge in winter than L1 might give you overnight, though. Or you could go the EVSE upgrade route, http://evseupgrade.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and use your dryer receptacle - better yet, since you have kids and are probably doing laundry frequently, install another receptacle with a switch to toggle between the dryer and EVSE, so you don't have to constantly plug and unplug the EVSE.

Do go for a lease rather than purchase, no more than three years, and get one for 15k miles/yr. rather than 12k/yr., as your commute alone will put you at 12k/yr. When you lease, the whole $7,500 federal tax credit is passed on to you immediately by reducing the price of the car, regardless of whether or not you have enough tax liability to qualify for all of it.

Reliability-wise, the 2011-2012s have been quite good, while the 2013s seems to be undergoing some teething problems in one specific component which may or may not be solved by the software fix now being installed. So far the reports are encouraging, but it hasn't been long enough to be sure, so you might want to wait a bit until there's more data (and it will be reported here, see this: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13194" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )

 

[planet4ever]

The reason I was thinking purchase instead of lease is mileage restrictions, lease "disposal fee", and nitpicking on turn in if the car gets a stone chip. I work in auto insurance claims, I see a lot of bad things from dealers. Good point though about not dealing with battery issues…but doesn't Nissan give an extended warranty on the battery?

There haven't been many end-of-lease turn ins yet, since most of the earliest leases were for three years, so we don't know how much nitpicking there will be. What we do know about, though, is battery problems, and that is why so many people are urging you to lease. The eight-year extended warranty does not cover normal battery degradation. Nissan has recently added a five-year warranty on that, but it is pegged at about a 70% level. 70% of a new battery will make a 50 mile commute dicey in the winter, even with your off-freeway route. And after five years you are on your own.

Many of us expect a significant battery upgrade somewhere around the 2015 or 2016 model year. Some think the new battery will be retrofittable to today's LEAFs, but I seriously doubt that. In fact, so far Nissan is refusing to sell replacement batteries of any kind for any price. When better cars with better batteries come on the market, the resale price for your current LEAF will plummet. If you lease you have a graceful way out. If you purchase, you may be stuck with an around-town-only car.

Guess I'll have to go look at them. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a nicely equiped car, but price rules for me. Things like in dash nav don't do anything for me, I actually prefer my 5 year old Garmin I stick on my windshield. I'd be looking for the best deal I can get.

I, too, like a simple car, and that is why I traded my 2011 for a 2013 S model. If you don't mind the lack of cruise control, and think you can live with the inefficient heater, you may not want to rule out the S.

Finally, with the miles you are driving, I expect you will want 240v charging. Please do look at the EVSEupgrade. The guy who designed it is a genius, and there are thousands of us who will attest to its reliability and usefulness. Not to mention that it is the least expensive way you can go.

Ray

 

[RonDawg]

The reason I was thinking purchase instead of lease is mileage restrictions, lease "disposal fee", and nitpicking on turn in if the car gets a stone chip. I work in auto insurance claims, I see a lot of bad things from dealers.

If you will be leasing through Nissan's finance arm NMAC (or Nissan-Infiniti LT), this is the established standard by which they will do an inspection on your car:

http://www.nissanusa.com/pdf/owning/Wear_and_Use_Guide.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With your commute, mileage restrictions are a valid concern, hence the recommendation to go with a 15k/year lease. But since you said you have alternate transportation available, you can always go with a 12k/year lease and use the other cars when you've exceeded your allotment for the month.

If you do wish to purchase and not lease, I strongly recommend getting a used one with as little battery capacity loss as possible, preferably one that did not spend the majority of its life in a hot climate like AZ or TX. This is because Leaf resale values have been rather dreadful. But the 2011/2012 models will not have the better heater, which combined with even a small amount (say 1 bar) of capacity loss, could prove problematic for your winter drive unless you have access to workplace charging, even if it's just a 120 volt outlet.

Good point though about not dealing with battery issues…but doesn't Nissan give an extended warranty on the battery?

The battery has 2 warranties. The original one only covers defects in workmanship. The other, which was only very recently announced and is retroactive to 2011/2012 models, covers battery capacity, which was not originally warranteed. It says that if you go below 9 bars within 5 years/60k miles, Nissan will give you a replacement pack that will give you at least 9 bars back. Your replacement pack may give you 12 bars, but when (not if) it starts losing capacity again, you won't get another warranty replacement until it again drops to the 8th bar before 5 years/60k miles are up.

 

[RonDawg]

so far Nissan is refusing to sell replacement batteries of any kind for any price.

Actually, you CAN buy a replacement. It costs $28,800 and comes with a free spare Leaf :lol:

 

[Klayfish]

OK, so I'm on board that leasing is the way to go if I get a Leaf. Very strong points regarding resale value and potential battery issues. Not all that long ago, I had been looking into buying a used 1st gen Honda Insight. Most of them had batteries that were dead or dying. But at least there were replacements available. I can work with the lease turn in inspection...I take care of my cars and am a licensed auto appraiser. The real bummer is the mileage restriction. I do have other cars I can use in order to help keep my mileage down, but one of the major draws to the Leaf is the cost savings. The more I drive it, the better. But at least my Miata gets 34mpg, which isn't too shabby.

I read the 2013 model has an improved heater. Has anyone in cold climate been able to verify that? Obviously I wouldn't be able to test it now...supposed to be 98 degrees here today.

 

[RonDawg]

The 2013's only started shipping in February or early March so they have not had a lot of "winter" time on them in consumer hands. However, after a big discussion on just how cold the heat pump heater is expected to work before the backup resistive heater kicks in, another member found a chart from Nissan that shows the heat pump to be effective to as low as +5 F. Also the improved heater is on the SV and SL, and not on the base Leaf S.

As far as the mileage restrictions, again you can always go to 15k/year. Several people here have these for both 24 and 36 months.

 

[Klayfish]

I went to test drive a LEAF yesterday. The only one they had on the lot was an SL, even though I'm really looking for an S. To be honest, I went into it not expecting to really enjoy the drive. I had test driven a new Insight last winter (yes, I know hybrids are very different), and while it wasn't a bad car, it didn't leave me impressed. I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised by the LEAF. The sheer silence is eerie at first, but quite nice. But the driving experience isn't too unlike my wife's Kia Forte wagon. It's not a sports car by any stretch, and nor was I expecting that, but I didn't find it a bore to drive. It was really cool, I was impressed. While the car will never be considered "fast", the instant torque is really nice. It's definitely now at the top of my shopping list.

But now, if I decide to get one, it's time to play ball with the dealerships. Ugh. This is why out of the countless cars I've bought, I've never leased one and only a handful have been bought from a dealer. I almost always buy private sale. Anyhow, this dealer tried to play a shell game with me...first saying "You can have an S model for just $1000 down and $298/month. After giving him a bewildered look, he said "Well, how about $2450 down and $240/month?" :roll: After calmly explaining to him what Nissan advertises and what I've read other owners get, he said "Well, that's just what Nissan advertises...". OK, time for me to move on, we're obviously wasting each others' time. It was Fred Beans Nissan in Limerick, PA, in case anyone goes there.

So, since I've never leased, I'm not sure about this question...since I live in PA, do I have to get the car from a PA dealer? Can I lease from an out of state dealer? Does the car have to be turned back in at the same dealer it was leased from? I've got a truck and trailer, so I could go anywhere to pick the car up if it was out of the LEAF's battery range. I've shipped cars from all over the country, so it doesn't concern me to go with a dealer that's not local. It's all about who gives me the best deal. I've read others here have gotten SV models for $150-$200/month and a reasonable downpayment....

 

[cgaydos]

But now, if I decide to get one, it's time to play ball with the dealerships. Ugh. This is why out of the countless cars I've bought, I've never leased one and only a handful have been bought from a dealer. I almost always buy private sale. Anyhow, this dealer tried to play a shell game with me...first saying "You can have an S model for just $1000 down and $298/month. After giving him a bewildered look, he said "Well, how about $2450 down and $240/month?" :roll: After calmly explaining to him what Nissan advertises and what I've read other owners get, he said "Well, that's just what Nissan advertises...". OK, time for me to move on, we're obviously wasting each others' time. It was Fred Beans Nissan in Limerick, PA, in case anyone goes there.

When I shopped for a lease last November the advertised deal was for an SV: $2k down, $249/month + tax, 2 years, 12k miles. Bids were all for an SL (SVs were in very short supply - the S model didn't exist in 2012) and varied from $2k down, $194/month with tax, 2 years, 15k miles to the same terms except $368/month. That's right - the top bid was almost double the bottom in terms of monthly payment.

Similarly, before getting the second LEAF in March I looked at a Focus Electric. The advertised offer was nothing down and $299/month, but the bid from the dealer where I test drove it was $425/month.

Now these dealers who had the very high bids all told me the difference between the advertised monthly payments and their high prices was the tax. To be blunt, they lied. When I looked closely I found that they were including dealer add-ons like $500 paint protection packages. These add-ons add no value to the car at the end of the lease and therefore the entire cost of them has to be paid for during the term of the lease.

What I recommend people do is email the internet departments at all dealers within a radius of XXX miles of your house with the specific lease terms you want, i.e. 12k miles, 3 years, and the exact model and option packages you want. Every locale is different, and market conditions differ over time. The great deals I was offered in November were not available when I asked again in February due to supply shortages. However, this method should give you an idea of the price range available. In addition. occasionally dealers are highly motivated to sell a car due to internal sales goals or incentives from the manufacture - you might be pleasantly surprised by one or more responses you receive.

Unfortunately, sometimes you get a great price over email or the phone only to get there and have them change the price on you. I suggest asking them to scan and send a copy of the sales contract. This usually prevents such last minute surprises.

So, since I've never leased, I'm not sure about this question...since I live in PA, do I have to get the car from a PA dealer? Can I lease from an out of state dealer? Does the car have to be turned back in at the same dealer it was leased from? I've got a truck and trailer, so I could go anywhere to pick the car up if it was out of the LEAF's battery range. I've shipped cars from all over the country, so it doesn't concern me to go with a dealer that's not local. It's all about who gives me the best deal. I've read others here have gotten SV models for $150-$200/month and a reasonable downpayment....

This is very feasible - many people have done it. You can turn the LEAF into any dealer at lease end - after all, many people move to new states during the terms of car leases so this has to be an option.

Depending on the state there are potential complicating factors regarding how the dealer's state treats sales tax and how your state deals with out-of-state cars. For this reason it is best to deal with a high volume dealer who is well-versed in leasing out of state and to check with your own DMV to verify the rules from their end.

 

[ksnogas2112]

So, since I've never leased, I'm not sure about this question...since I live in PA, do I have to get the car from a PA dealer? Can I lease from an out of state dealer? Does the car have to be turned back in at the same dealer it was leased from? I've got a truck and trailer, so I could go anywhere to pick the car up if it was out of the LEAF's battery range. I've shipped cars from all over the country, so it doesn't concern me to go with a dealer that's not local. It's all about who gives me the best deal. I've read others here have gotten SV models for $150-$200/month and a reasonable downpayment....

1. No you don't have to buy/lease a Leaf from any specific dealer. So shop around and get an honest...well somewhat honest... dealer.

2. Return to original dealer when lease is up...I don't know but I suspect the answer should be no. If you lease a car you're leasing from the financial organization not the dealer and even though Leaf's don't typically go cross country other cars do and it doesn't make sense to force leasee's to go back to original dealer but someone else needs to chime in on this one for sure.

It sounds like the original dealer you talked to isn't worth returning to. Definitely don't take the car to them for the minor service needs.

 

[RonDawg]

For cars leased through NMAC (Nissan's financing arm), you have to turn the car back to a Nissan dealer, but it does not have to be the same dealer you bought it from.