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TonyWilliams
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:15 pm

epirali wrote:... well aware of POTENTIAL 200 mile BEVs coming in 2-3 years. None of which changes my position that having a gasoline Rex on any of these will help adoption.

What I find baffling is this: if theoretically Rex on BEV gets much more adoption and most BEV w/Rex owners use the Rex say 10% of the time how is this WORSE than if they stuck to an ICE 100% of the time due to range concerns? I'm sorry I just don't get it and I am not trying to be obtuse.


If gasoline is your position, why are you challenging me? I don't need gasoline AT ALL, and do not promote gasoline usage. I do not promote the methods used to procure that gasoline, or the environmental damage that results from its use.

You do.

I can get a sense of pessimism from you concerning EVs in general, calling longer range cars "potential" when in fact I'm driving a longer range EV than any proposed.

I don't agree with your premise that hybrids are what will bring mass adoption of "EVs". I predict that a robust, dependable, ubiquitous DC charger infrastructure and 200-300 mile range cars will be the answer.

We fundamentally disagree, both in what EVs with proper infrastructure can do, as well as your tacit support of the oil industry that I fundamentally do not support.

Good luck promoting gasoline cars (or hydrogen cars) on a forum devoted to an EV.

epirali
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:33 pm

I understand we don't agree, and I respect that. But please stop saying the same wrong thing about my position. I am not promoting gasoline cars, I am promoting more adoption of BEVs (not hybrids) via Rex. It's not the same thing. And I also have hopes for electric cars that run on hydrogen.

I am a big fan of electric cars, not wedded to batteries alone. And I want the fastest way to get most adoption possible. And finally I do not like hybrids or small range electric only hybrids much. And to say there are over 200 mile electric cars now you are ignoring my belief that BEVs CAN NOT SUCCEED in a rarified market. They MUST fall to around $30k or they will not be much mass adoption. Tesla and Leaf sales are a tiny tiny drop in the bucket, it has to change. And in my option the i3 as a whole is not at all a success in this regards.

And finally I am not challenging you at all. We just disagree on method, that's all.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Sun Aug 09, 2015 1:42 pm

By SAE’s definition, a hybrid is:
“A vehicle with two or more energy storage systems both of which must provide propulsion power – either together or independently.” To be a “pure electric car” it has to have only electricity as a “fuel” for propulsion and currently only the BEV meets that criteria.

1) I don't support gasoline cars, fracking, pollution, and other environmental damage
2) "REx" is a silly acronym for a gasoline hybrid car
3) I don't believe hybrids are required for mass adoption of EVs (and neither does Tesla)
4) I don't deny people who want a hybrid... it's not for me

edatoakrun
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:48 pm

Using hydrocarbon fuel and an ICE for range extension makes even more sense for larger vehicles, like trucks and SUVs, than for cars, vehicles which carrying capacity is limited to four or five people and their luggage.

edatoakrun wrote:(see page 28)...A Tesla X (for example) equipped with a ~25 kW generator and only a ~50 kWh pack could easily make the same ~three hour ~200 mile Winter Tahoe trip non-stop, while a 90 kWh Tesla X BEV would probably have to stop to recharge en-route.

The hypothetical Tesla X50x25, would also cost a lot less than an X90, and due to the lower weight, handle better and have superior efficiency.

I don't expect Tesla ever will build a BEVx,, but I wouldn't be surprised to see BMW, Mercedes, or even Infiniti do so, in the next few years.

IMO Tesla has built its brand on a collection of clichés, which include the derivative ICEV design (look, a huge hood...that's empty inside?), "free" Charging, and using batteries exclusively for energy storage.

Even though this results in a grossly inefficient, overweight, and overpriced design, the S has found a market, evidently by appealing to the significant segment of buyers with narcissistic tendencies.

Not so sure how well the X is going work out for Tesla though, since an SUV is where having a few hundred extra kWh in the tank (as with a BEVx, PHEV or ICEV) will be missed the most.

A Tesla X will be fine for suburban minivan use, but for energy intensive driving such as winter mountain use and towing over reasonable ranges, exactly the sort of uses for which some are convinced they need a SUV, many may find that the X falls short...
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evnow
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:15 pm

I think in general within a couple of years BEVx will not make much sense. It made sense in 2010.

If a 200 miles BEV can be had for 35k, why bother with an ICE ?
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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edatoakrun
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:33 pm

evnow wrote:I think in general within a couple of years BEVx will not make much sense. It made sense in 2010.

If a 200 miles BEV can be had for 35k, why bother with an ICE ?

If by "200 miles" you mean a 50 kWh (available) BEV, that battery capacity may only get you only half that far in extremely demanding miles, such as high-speed winter driving with large ascents, or when towing.

If you mean a BEV for ~$35 k with ~100 kWh available battery capacity, which would have the ability to make the ~200 mile Winter Tahoe trip example from page one on a single charge (except when towing) I think that's much more than a couple of years off, maybe more like a couple of decades.

In either case, why would anyone want to have the most rapidly depreciating component of their BEV scaled to meet the needs you have only a few times a year, when there are much lower cost options, like an ICE range extender, or the no cost option, just waiting ~ 20 to 30 minutes for a DC charge?

I really think the desire to put enough batteries to power three or four BEVs (or BEVxs) into a single car, given the large dollar and environmental costs of manufacturing batteries today and for the foreseeable future, is more a symptom of a hoarding fetish than the expression of any real need.

When and if batteries are developed with much higher energy densities and much lower costs, then yes, an ICE (or turbine, or fuel cell) range extender will not be necessary.

But the BEVx I was asking for ~four years ago on page one of this thread, is still the one I'd buy today, if given the chance.
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epirali
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:47 am

evnow wrote:I think in general within a couple of years BEVx will not make much sense. It made sense in 2010.

If a 200 miles BEV can be had for 35k, why bother with an ICE ?


Actually this is exactly why I got the i3/Rex, to cover the gap until 200 mile commuter cost cars are on the market. At 200 mile/$30k the only thing holding back BEVs over ICE is charging infrastructure. But it should significantly increase BEV market. A lot of people I run into who have been intrigued by the Leaf (and who are not in the Tesla price range) are only held back by the range, but would jump at 200 mile real range.

Only caveat is I also have ICE vehicles for long haul. But so do most potential BEV customers.

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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:23 am

edatoakrun wrote:If by "200 miles" you mean a 50 kWh (available) BEV, that battery capacity may only get you only half that far in extremely demanding miles, such as high-speed winter driving with large ascents, or when towing.

If you mean a BEV for ~$35 k with ~100 kWh available battery capacity, which would have the ability to make the ~200 mile Winter Tahoe trip example from page one on a single charge (except when towing) I think that's much more than a couple of years off, maybe more like a couple of decades.

I don't want to buy a BEV that covers 100% of my scenarios - just 95%. "200 mile Winter Tahoe trip example from page one on a single charge (except when towing) " is outside that 95%.

Afterall I don't buy a Boeing to fly to EU or Asia.

As to what 200 miles is - it is a 60 kWh vehicle. I expect to be able to get one in 3 years.

I no longer need a BEVx - afterall a regular PHEV is more efficient than BEVx in extended range mode and won't suck at freeway driving like i3 does.
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epirali
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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:28 am

evnow wrote:I don't want to buy a BEV that covers 100% of my scenarios - just 95%. "200 mile Winter Tahoe trip example from page one on a single charge (except when towing) " is outside that 95%.

Afterall I don't buy a Boeing to fly to EU or Asia.

As to what 200 miles is - it is a 60 kWh vehicle. I expect to be able to get one in 3 years.

I no longer need a BEVx - afterall a regular PHEV is more efficient than BEVx in extended range mode and won't suck at freeway driving like i3 does.


I post this as someone who actually isn't a fan of the i3/Rex, but I have to slightly disagree. The only reason I have this car now is because I can use it every day, and use it much more and put more miles on it than my Leaf. Simply because the Rex is an enabler. It lets me go all the way down on the battery, and use the car on days I may need more range without having a chance to recharge. Before I would have switched to an ICE when it probably would not have been needed. But now I can stick to the EV mode.

And as for PHEVs: I disagree, unless someone really needs mostly an ICE with some limited BEV range. I think a lot of people like me need mostly a BEV with some limited ICE range. That is why I didn't get a Volt (well one of the reasons).

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Re: The “range–extended” EV (BEVx) considered

Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:28 pm

epirali wrote:I post this as someone who actually isn't a fan of the i3/Rex, but I have to slightly disagree. The only reason I have this car now is because I can use it every day, and use it much more and put more miles on it than my Leaf. Simply because the Rex is an enabler. It lets me go all the way down on the battery, and use the car on days I may need more range without having a chance to recharge. Before I would have switched to an ICE when it probably would not have been needed. But now I can stick to the EV mode.

Yes - as I said BEVx is a good 2010 concept.

And as for PHEVs: I disagree, unless someone really needs mostly an ICE with some limited BEV range. I think a lot of people like me need mostly a BEV with some limited ICE range. That is why I didn't get a Volt (well one of the reasons).

The idea is to get a 200 mile BEV for all local travel and a PHEV for longer trips. Most families have 2 cars, anyway.
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