Home charging: Forget L2, why not just go DC (at 240V) ?

I picked up this thread url from another posting:

NOTE: the DC I am referring to here uses the L3 DC port on the LEAF.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64&vmcchk=1&Itemid=64

If the prices for these items drop (PFC-50 or PFC-40), or if there is another vendor offering similar products, why not install the DC charger in place of an L2 and in combination with the supplied L1 with the Leaf?

I understand, it is not good to always quick-charge the battery but how about this:

Is it possible, to plug BOTH the DC (L3 port) and J1772 (L1) simultaneously; charge the DC to 70%, program the L1 to trickle/topoff the rest?

Sorry if these are senseless/wacky ideas....

mxp said:

I picked up this thread url from another posting:

NOTE: the DC I am referring to here uses the L3 DC port on the LEAF.

http://www.manzanitamicro.com/index.php?page=shop.browse&category_id=14&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=64&vmcchk=1&Itemid=64

If the prices for these items drop (PFC-50 or PFC-40), or if there is another vendor offering similar products, why not install the DC charger in place of an L2 and in combination with the supplied L1 with the Leaf?

I understand, it is not good to always quick-charge the battery but how about this:

Is it possible, to plug BOTH the DC (L3 port) and J1772 (L1) simultaneously; charge the DC to 70%, program the L1 to trickle/topoff the rest?

Sorry if these are senseless/wacky ideas....

Click to expand...

Easy answer, a proper isolated charger (PFC's are not) is expensive because it also needs to have the needed controls to communicate with the BMS, even pfc has limited functions here, not to mention one needs to also buy the L3 connector.

I posted links to Manzanito micro a while back, even had some communications with Rich Rudman ("Aka the madman") himself. He's willing to try working with the Leaf, if someone brings him a Leaf equipped with a L3 port.

Of course since then, Nissan has come out and stated that charging with anything other than approved chargers voids the Leafs battery pack warranty. You can bet that Nissan is logging ALL charging done to the pack, so it's probably not a good idea at this point to pursue this further, plus of course you have the isolation issue as well.

It is very possible to do that, and the manzanita chargers are very reasonable when others are charging $500 for a fancy charging cord.

The external DC charger using the LEAFs L3 port would still depend on the LEAF's internal BMS (battery management system) to control the charge process.. I'm not sure what the specs on the chademo connector are but perhaps it communicates back to the external charger to let it know how many amps and volts to pump out.

You could easily have 240V at 60A (14.4kW) on the standard wiring at many houses. You could have an 80% recharge in 1.5 hours, or pump in 40 miles of range in 30 minutes.

It will become a necessity once battery packs get to the 50-100kwh size, for a large SUV.

1. When charging a battery, you can specify the voltage OR the current, not both. If you specify a voltage, you (usually) need to specify a maximum current LIMIT. Specifying the desired (maximum) charging current is sufficient, and the "charger" can adjust its voltage to achieve that current, if possible. A voltage LIMIT might be a safety precaution. Of course, as charging progresses, the intelligent charge-controller would change (even stop) the desired current request, either to better check on the charging progress, or to keep from overcharging.

2. Larger battery packs, with the longer charge times required, will probably "fuel" a push for more energy-efficient transportation.

It is not even clear that "individually-owned cars" are appropriate for energy-efficient (especially long-range) trips.

mitch672 said:

I posted links to Manzanito micro a while back, even had some communications with Rich Rudman ("Aka the madman") himself. He's willing to try working with the Leaf, if someone brings him a Leaf equipped with a L3 port.

Of course since then, Nissan has come out and stated that charging with anything other than approved chargers voids the Leafs battery pack warranty. You can bet that Nissan is logging ALL charging done to the pack, so it's probably not a good idea at this point to pursue this further, plus of course you have the isolation issue as well.

Click to expand...

They can't void the warranty from using third party products, it's not going to happen and they would never get away with it. This has been proven over and over and this would also mean every public charging station would void warranties, this is complete nonsense.

Herm said:

It is very possible to do that, and the manzanita chargers are very reasonable when others are charging $500 for a fancy charging cord.

The external DC charger using the LEAFs L3 port would still depend on the LEAF's internal BMS (battery management system) to control the charge process.. I'm not sure what the specs on the chademo connector are but perhaps it communicates back to the external charger to let it know how many amps and volts to pump out.

You could easily have 240V at 60A (14.4kW) on the standard wiring at many houses. You could have an 80% recharge in 1.5 hours, or pump in 40 miles of range in 30 minutes.

It will become a necessity once battery packs get to the 50-100kwh size, for a large SUV.

Click to expand...

Don't forget that a PFC charger is NOT isolated and the Leaf charger is isolated. If you are unaware of what that means you may find out by touching your car when charging. I have owed about three PFC chargers and they are great for the money but they do have some limitations and some debatable safety issues. The cost of a PFFC 50 is getting expensive as well.

EVDRIVER said:

mitch672 said:

I posted links to Manzanito micro a while back, even had some communications with Rich Rudman ("Aka the madman") himself. He's willing to try working with the Leaf, if someone brings him a Leaf equipped with a L3 port.

Of course since then, Nissan has come out and stated that charging with anything other than approved chargers voids the Leafs battery pack warranty. You can bet that Nissan is logging ALL charging done to the pack, so it's probably not a good idea at this point to pursue this further, plus of course you have the isolation issue as well.

Click to expand...

They can't void the warranty from using third party products, it's not going to happen and they would never get away with it. This has been proven over and over and this would also mean every public charging station would void warranties, this is complete nonsense.

Click to expand...

Public charging stations conform to either J-1772 for level 2, or the Chademo for the DC fast charge. Their is specific language in the Leaf warranty about modifying chargers, etc
Adapting a PFC-50 without proving the communication protocol is working etc, could be problematic. In other words, if a proper communication interface is developed, there probably won't he an issue... Let's see who the first brave person is who wants to risk their battery pack is.

Someone asked to borrow my "cellphone charger", and I had to correct them..

"It's an EVSE, actually. The phone charger is built into the phone, along with the LiPo battery management system. This isn't a charger -- it's just a 5v power supply. Oh, no worries, it's a common mistake."

:ugeek:

mitch672 said:

EVDRIVER said:

mitch672 said:

I posted links to Manzanito micro a while back, even had some communications with Rich Rudman ("Aka the madman") himself. He's willing to try working with the Leaf, if someone brings him a Leaf equipped with a L3 port.

Of course since then, Nissan has come out and stated that charging with anything other than approved chargers voids the Leafs battery pack warranty. You can bet that Nissan is logging ALL charging done to the pack, so it's probably not a good idea at this point to pursue this further, plus of course you have the isolation issue as well.

Click to expand...

They can't void the warranty from using third party products, it's not going to happen and they would never get away with it. This has been proven over and over and this would also mean every public charging station would void warranties, this is complete nonsense.

Click to expand...

Public charging stations conform to either J-1772 for level 2, or the Chademo for the DC fast charge. Their is specific language in the Leaf warranty about modifying chargers, etc
Adapting a PFC-50 without proving the communication protocol is working etc, could be problematic. In other words, if a proper communication interface is developed, there probably won't he an issue... Let's see who the first brave person is who wants to risk their battery pack is.

Click to expand...

I'm going to bet the BMS protects the back and opens the contactor if there is a heat or overcharge issue. You need to keep the contactor closed to charge and to do that you need to meet a few requirements. If you damage the pack , which would likely be tough unless you try, a MFG must prove it was you doing that did the damage, technically speaking. For those that think any non-approved EVSE could do any harm to a pack they they need to take electronics 101, because it is not going to happen unless you rig it to do so which will take quite an effort.

GroundLoop said:

Someone asked to borrow my "cellphone charger", and I had to correct them..

"It's an EVSE, actually. The phone charger is built into the phone, along with the LiPo battery management system. This isn't a charger -- it's just a 5v power supply. Oh, no worries, it's a common mistake."

:ugeek:

Click to expand...

Did you get smacked upside the head?

EVDRIVER said:

Don't forget that a PFC charger is NOT isolated and the Leaf charger is isolated. If you are unaware of what that means you may find out by touching your car when charging. I have owed about three PFC chargers and they are great for the money but they do have some limitations and some debatable safety issues.

Click to expand...

That could be very lethal with DC voltages at the 400V level.. if your dog peed on the wheels while it was plugged in

Herm said:

EVDRIVER said:

Don't forget that a PFC charger is NOT isolated and the Leaf charger is isolated. If you are unaware of what that means you may find out by touching your car when charging. I have owed about three PFC chargers and they are great for the money but they do have some limitations and some debatable safety issues.

Click to expand...

That could be very lethal with DC voltages at the 400V level.. if your dog peed on the wheels while it was plugged in

Click to expand...

I've felt 260V off a PFC 30 several times and the full force of a 300V DC pack when I once touched my face up on a binding post on a motor, um fun. I also have a few tools that are now melted in half

GroundLoop said:

Someone asked to borrow my "cellphone charger", and I had to correct them..

"It's an EVSE, actually. The phone charger is built into the phone, along with the LiPo battery management system. This isn't a charger -- it's just a 5v power supply. Oh, no worries, it's a common mistake."

Click to expand...

That I gotta see. You're planning to use your cell phone power supply as Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment? :?

Actually, even apart from the "V" part, it is not equivalent. Your power supply changes 120v AC to 5v DC. The EVSE changes 240v AC to ... 240v AC.

Now, if you wanted to claim the outlet in your bathroom is an EVSE (Electric Vanity Supply Equipment) I would go along with that. It serves basically the same purpose - provide electricity with a safety cutoff.

Personally, I think the issue of home charging speed is getting a bit overblown... For most home charging, the on-board 3.3 kW charger will be sufficient, as in most cases, you'll be charging overnight and will have time to get a full charge at 3.3 kW. This is why I'm planning to install a Leviton 16A EVSE at home. I realize this is not a "future-proof" plan, but I'd like to see how the future of EVs unfolds; it's probably too early to be sure that anything is future-proof at this point.

Away from home is where I'd need a quicker charge. Personally, I'd like to see a 7.2 kW on-board charger so I could utilize the full 30A likely to be available at L2 public charge points. Other than work, I might typically spend a limited amount of time at a public charge point, so it would be nice to pick up charge as fast as possible.

EVDRIVER said:

< cut >

I've felt 260V off a PFC 30 several times and the full force of a 300V DC pack when I once touched my face up on a binding post on a motor, um fun. I also have a few tools that are now melted in half

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experiences EVDRIVER ! ( )

Since I originally started this thread, and given everyones input here, it does sound like a very bad idea, at least for the broad market use case....

Thanks to everyone for sharing!

mxp said:

Since I originally started this thread, and given everyones input here, it does sound like a very bad idea, at least for the broad market use case....

Click to expand...

but only if the manzanita charger is used, a properly designed DC charger could be used instead.. and I bet there would be a large market for it.

mxp said:

EVDRIVER said:

< cut >

I've felt 260V off a PFC 30 several times and the full force of a 300V DC pack when I once touched my face up on a binding post on a motor, um fun. I also have a few tools that are now melted in half

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing your experiences EVDRIVER ! ( )

Since I originally started this thread, and given everyones input here, it does sound like a very bad idea, at least for the broad market use case....

Thanks to everyone for sharing!

Click to expand...

Just felt my solar array voltage on Sat when I moved my cut off switch, forgot to throw the AC switch as well, nice boost of energy This is how I get extra range.

I don't get all the fast charge anxiety. L1 at home seems fine to me.
How many times a day are you going to do these home quick charges?

Although next year I think I will spring for an L2 at home.

planet4ever said:

GroundLoop said:

Someone asked to borrow my "cellphone charger", and I had to correct them..

"It's an EVSE, actually. The phone charger is built into the phone, along with the LiPo battery management system. This isn't a charger -- it's just a 5v power supply. Oh, no worries, it's a common mistake."

Click to expand...

That I gotta see. You're planning to use your cell phone power supply as Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment? :?

Actually, even apart from the "V" part, it is not equivalent. Your power supply changes 120v AC to 5v DC. The EVSE changes 240v AC to ... 240v AC.

Now, if you wanted to claim the outlet in your bathroom is an EVSE (Electric Vanity Supply Equipment) I would go along with that. It serves basically the same purpose - provide electricity with a safety cutoff.

Click to expand...

Unless you're talking about RC LEAF that's been posted in another thread