dhanson865
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:30 am

Mod note: For anyone looking for the prior conversation about one of our newest members I've moved that conversation to viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23748

Please feel free to continue discussions about tech here and welcoming new users there.
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cwerdna
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 02, 2017 5:22 pm

IBeLeaf2 wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote: I'd be willing to bet that there's a few late 2014 production models that got lizard batteries but I think there's really no way to know for sure if your has one unless you ran some readings when it was new and noticed a 292 GID reading.

Based on your statement, I wonder if I have a lizard even with a 1/14 build date. LeafSpy indicated a SOC of 103% and GIDs of 292 several months and a couple thousand miles after purchase.

I find it unlikely a 1/14 build month '14 Leaf has the "lizard battery" given the announcement at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168.

It may be wishful thinking that any '14s have it.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
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IBeLeaf2
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 20 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 331893
Location: Nobleboro, ME

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:33 pm

cwerdna wrote:
IBeLeaf2 wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote: I'd be willing to bet that there's a few late 2014 production models that got lizard batteries but I think there's really no way to know for sure if your has one unless you ran some readings when it was new and noticed a 292 GID reading.

Based on your statement, I wonder if I have a lizard even with a 1/14 build date. LeafSpy indicated a SOC of 103% and GIDs of 292 several months and a couple thousand miles after purchase.

I find it unlikely a 1/14 build month '14 Leaf has the "lizard battery" given the announcement at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168.

It may be wishful thinking that any '14s have it.


Thanks for your thoughts on this. I didn't see anything on the first or last page of the topic you referred to which seemed to fit with my question though. Is there a specific quote you could point me to?

I wasn't doing much wishful thinking, just trying to determine why my battery is doing so well compared to others who have lost bars.

As I said originally, I did see 292 GIDs in LeafSpy. The opinion had been stated that 292 would indicate a "lizard" pack. After 37months and 55K miles it still shows 282-284 GIDs when charged.
Today I drove 82 miles round trip in 2.1 hours (avg. speed 40mph) and had 15 miles left on the GOM when I plugged in at home. I wasn't using LeafSpy so I can't provide the GID's.

Any ideas why this would be?
Are there others out there with similar battery statistics?

correction made to recent GID numbers. 282-284 is correct not 382-384. Now that would be wishful thinking :lol:
Last edited by IBeLeaf2 on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blue SV mfg. 1/14
54,600 miles on 4/4/17, 2315 L2, 145 QC
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cwerdna
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:52 pm

IBeLeaf2 wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
IBeLeaf2 wrote:Based on your statement, I wonder if I have a lizard even with a 1/14 build date. LeafSpy indicated a SOC of 103% and GIDs of 292 several months and a couple thousand miles after purchase.

I find it unlikely a 1/14 build month '14 Leaf has the "lizard battery" given the announcement at viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168.

It may be wishful thinking that any '14s have it.


Thanks for your thoughts on this. I didn't see anything on the first or last page of the topic you referred to which seemed to fit with my question though. Is there a specific quote you could point me to?

From the OP of that thread made June 27, 2014:
BBrockman wrote:I’m happy to be back to provide a long-awaited update on the Nissan LEAF battery replacement plan.
...

These replacement batteries are the same battery found in 2015 LEAF vehicles, which are also on sale now at Nissan dealers. As a replacement, this battery is expected to provide similar range and charging characteristics as the battery offered since the launch of the LEAF in 2010. Changes in battery chemistry, however, have been made in an effort to make the battery more durable in extremely hot climates. (So, yes…this is what you’ve been calling the “lizard” battery.) We knew it was important to early buyers to purchase the latest technology. Holding the replacement program until this summer meant we would be offering just that.

viewtopic.php?t=23145 is a thread I found discussing '14 Leafs and what battery is included. I'm sure there are others.

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IBeLeaf2
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 20 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 331893
Location: Nobleboro, ME

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:55 pm

As I read the quote it says - the packs being offer for sale as replacements are the same as the packs in the 2015 Leafs. Didn't say there aren't 2014's with the pack.

But once again, I am only exploring why my higher mileage car is doing well. The best answer to fit so far is "more frequent battery cycling and higher mileage" is good for the battery. The real test will be the 6 year and 100K mile threshold.

One thing I notice is that when I'm down to <20%, the GIDs do seem to drop more quickly.
Also, I had a "battery software" update done after the first yearly battery check. The Nissan app was telling me I needed 10-20 mins of charging after showing that a charge to 100% had finished. The update fixed it. Any one else had this happen?

Next time I use the car I'll update my signature with the latest spec reported by LeafSpy

cwerdna wrote:

viewtopic.php?t=23145 is a thread I found discussing '14 Leafs and what battery is included. I'm sure there are others.[/quote]

Thanks, but yes I was part of that discussion.
Blue SV mfg. 1/14
54,600 miles on 4/4/17, 2315 L2, 145 QC
12 bars 284 GIDS 22kWh 66.904AHr 100%SOH 102.82Hx 395.91V
daily travel 15-125 miles, most months include 200+mile days
TOU rate plan, usually charge to 100% overnight.
4.5KW solar, 20kWh backup

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:06 am

IBeLeaf2 wrote:As I read the quote it says - the packs being offer for sale as replacements are the same as the packs in the 2015 Leafs. Didn't say there aren't 2014's with the pack.

But once again, I am only exploring why my higher mileage car is doing well. The best answer to fit so far is "more frequent battery cycling and higher mileage" is good for the battery. The real test will be the 6 year and 100K mile threshold.



How about an unrelated question? Do you think that cell balancing happens all the time or only when traction pack is engaged? either running or charging?

If its the latter, then the pack would have a greater balance which means a greater equalization of work across the cells. This in itself would increase the pack longevity.

Now for some this might seem like small steps, too small really and they would be correct, initially. But what happens is the lower cells receive a larger part of the load which creates greater voltage swings increasing degradation. This imbalance adds up over time and if there is insufficient time for balancing to happen this is the issue we get. a pack with 95% of the cells at nearly 100% of their capacity and a small handful that are now at 75% of their capacity but still more than enough to destroy the range.
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Aussie
Posts: 98
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Location: Dallas

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:38 pm

IBeLeaf2 wrote:I wasn't doing much wishful thinking, just trying to determine why my battery is doing so well compared to others who have lost bars.

Are the others you are comparing yourself to also in Maine? With an average high of 79 in July (highest month) I don't expect you would have any significant battery degradation issues, regardless of whether your battery is original or 'lizard' chemistry.

IBeLeaf2
Posts: 45
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:13 am
Delivery Date: 20 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 331893
Location: Nobleboro, ME

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:57 pm

Aussie wrote:
IBeLeaf2 wrote:I wasn't doing much wishful thinking, just trying to determine why my battery is doing so well compared to others who have lost bars.

Are the others you are comparing yourself to also in Maine? With an average high of 79 in July (highest month) I don't expect you would have any significant battery degradation issues, regardless of whether your battery is original or 'lizard' chemistry.

I don't recall a summer that hasn't had days in the 90's. Maine is a big state, Presque Isle still has 4' of snow on the ground, Kittery has daffodils up. But don't tell anyone it, isn't tourist season and the restaurants aren't open yet. ;)

If it is true that heat is the only reason batteries degrade, than let's spread that fact around. I see too many posts about battery degradation and not enough indicating it is only heat related. I've had people say to me that they won't buy an EV because the "car/battery wears out to fast" and "they aren't suited for the Maine climate"

I've also read on My Nissan Leaf things like "never charge to 100%", "never leave it at 100%", "charge just before you need it, not when you are done using it", "quick chargers are bad for the battery" and other warnings. I do all of those bad things and still the battery is doing well.
Are we giving EV's a bad name? Or justifiably warning potential buyers to avoid the pitfalls.

Or perhaps there have been other upgrades to battery chemistry before the "lizard" that explain why I get away with breaking the rules. Although my car is not expose to temps over 100F, that is due to where I live not because I avoid them.

I understand we are more apt to hear about the problems than the positives. But if it is only heat that causes the problems let's say so and stop worrying potential EV buyers who live in the more habitable sections of the country. :D

There are other contributors who live in the cooler climes. Seems likely LeftieBiker could chime in here.
Blue SV mfg. 1/14
54,600 miles on 4/4/17, 2315 L2, 145 QC
12 bars 284 GIDS 22kWh 66.904AHr 100%SOH 102.82Hx 395.91V
daily travel 15-125 miles, most months include 200+mile days
TOU rate plan, usually charge to 100% overnight.
4.5KW solar, 20kWh backup

LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:05 pm

If it is true that heat is the only reason batteries degrade, than let's spread that fact around. I see too many posts about battery degradation and not enough indicating it is only heat related. I've had people say to me that they won't buy an EV because the "car/battery wears out to fast" and "they aren't suited for the Maine climate"


The older battery chemistry, used before April of 2013, degrades over time as well as with heat. The only exception to this seems to be in very cool (cooler than Maine) climates where it pretty much never gets really hot. As for breaking "rules" about never letting the car sit at 100%, that also depends on the pack temp. Do you leave it at 100% for days in 90F weather? And there is no "rule" against charging to 100% - only one about not leaving it there for more than a few hours, especially in hot weather. And QC is only "bad for the battery" to the extent that it generates heat: if the pack is already hot, then QC is bad. If the pack isn't hot, then QC is fine.
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Re: Lizard Pack Holding Up

Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:58 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
If it is true that heat is the only reason batteries degrade, than let's spread that fact around. I see too many posts about battery degradation and not enough indicating it is only heat related. I've had people say to me that they won't buy an EV because the "car/battery wears out to fast" and "they aren't suited for the Maine climate"


The older battery chemistry, used before April of 2013, degrades over time as well as with heat. <snip>

All batteries degrade due to time, heat and charge/discharge cycles. The different chemistries do so at different rates in each category, but they all do so.

As for Maine, the occasional 90-deg day is very different from constant ones, where overnight ambient temps rarely drop below the '70s ('80s in places like Phoenix) for months at a time. So, heat matters, but sustained higher temps which prevent the battery from cooling down much are also critical. So, I wouldn't expect a car in Maine to show as much degradation as an area which sees similar high temps, but for a longer period of time and without large overnight temperature deltas.
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