armmynissanleaf
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I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 10:30 am

I was reading this opinion from Joe Real, published at Torque News and think Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt and Volt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla. Tesla is more expensive and the cost of charging is high, when it comes to Model 3. Your thoughts? Do you agree with the math?

Chevy Volt is Better For The Middle Class Than Tesla Because Electricity Is Always Cheaper Than Gas
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r1234567
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 10:45 am

Don't forget the Honda Clarity! We have a Nissan Leaf and added the Clarity. Almost 3 months in and we are still on the same tank of gas.

alozzy
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 2:55 pm

I don't like hybrids, they are simply prolonging our dependence on oil and they are more complex to manufacture, maintain, and repair...

Electricity generation is getting cleaner, year over year, based on this study's results:

https://insideevs.com/union-of-concerne ... than-ever/

It's so frustrating that more people haven't chosen to take a leap of faith and purchase a BEV. We would be seeing way more R&D on battery technology if more consumers would purchase shorter range BEVs, rather than hybrids. I know not everyone can switch to a BEV due to range considerations for work related trips, but that's a small minority. Most people could drive a BEV for all but longer holiday trips and then simply rent an ICE car for those holidays when they need more range.

Having said that, several times now I've made trips of 250 miles (400 km) or more with my 2013 SV and sure, lots of charging is needed, but over 400 km it really only adds a couple of hours of time. I actually find myself less stressed because I'm forced to take a break while the car is charging, which lets me recharge my batteries too!
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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RonDawg
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 4:03 pm

alozzy wrote:It's so frustrating that more people haven't chosen to take a leap of faith and purchase a BEV. We would be seeing way more R&D on battery technology if more consumers would purchase shorter range BEVs, rather than hybrids. I know not everyone can switch to a BEV due to range considerations for work related trips, but that's a small minority. Most people could drive a BEV for all but longer holiday trips and then simply rent an ICE car for those holidays when they need more range.


Some of the reasons:

1. Added cost over an equivalent ICEV. Yes there is the Federal tax credit, and possibly state/local incentives. But in most cases you have to front the money first, particularly with non-Federal incentives. California's $2500 rebate sometimes has a waiting list if funding runs out. Some folks also won't qualify for the full $7500 Federal tax credit (though leasing, then buying out the lease, is a way around this).

2. Some folks don't want to bother having to retain a second car (when one is otherwise not needed) or having to rent. Personally I prefer to rent for road trips, and put the miles on someone else's car. But not everybody is me.

3. With the advent of the Bolt, Tesla Model 3, and soon the Hyundai Kona EV, range is less of an issue, but recharging speed remains. Some folks feel sitting around for 30 minutes at a DCFC is too much. You also have situations that affect any public charging station: occupied, broken, ICE'd. For many people, charging at home is simply not feasible, due to living in rental accommodation, or even not having off-street parking. So they have to rely on charging at work, or using a public EVSE that may not be available for them to use when they want it.

4. Unless you have Tesla money, you're pretty much limited to hatchbacks (and soon small CUVs).
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

smkettner
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 5:56 pm

I agree with Volt and Bolt. LEAF no so much until Nissan starts putting in good batteries.
I would not consider anything less than solid everyday range of 140+ miles.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV

iPlug
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 7:21 pm

I would still include the Leaf. Our 2016 had a battery replaced a couple months ago and we have 10 months to go on the 3 year lease. $3000/yr net cost for 3 years, no oil changes, no tire replacements on us. Only maintenance costs are topping up the wiper fluid.

Not the car for those who want to own this thing for more than 8 years without some expensive battery replacement costs to deal with or markedly degraded range, but a quite affordable way to have a brand new BEV every 3 years and everything covered by warranty. For most 2+ vehicle households like us, range is of little issue.
2016 Leaf SV (leased) + 2012 Plug-in Prius (own), 11.43 kW Solar PV (16 MWh/yr actual production), Clipper Creek Level-2 7.7 kW charging stations x2, 20.5 SEER/13.0 HSPF ducted air-source heat pump, 3.70 UEF heat pump water heater

DarthPuppy
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 9:29 pm

I pretty much concur.

For those for whom the BEV range works, the Leaf and Bolt are more affordable than Tesla.

For those for whom the non-Tesla BEV range is a little short, the Volt or Clarity are excellent options.

We also have both a Leaf and Clarity. My commute could work with the 2018 Leaf, but not with any spare room for degradation past the first year. The Clarity allows me to drive mostly EV with some gas. I'm putting in about 4 gallons every 2 weeks - far less than the ICEV that I used prior to the Clarity. I believe the Volt would provide similarly good results for my situation.

I personally am glad we are getting some good, diverse options out there. The more options, the more people will be able to find one that fits their needs/anxiety balancing. That should increase adoption rates.
'13 Leaf SL
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alozzy
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Thu May 24, 2018 10:32 pm

@RonDawg

1. Added cost over an equivalent


Valid points, but the reason that BEVs are still more expensive than ICE equivalents is not because they are inherently more expensive. Scale is the big advantage that ICE cars have over BEVs - that and a lack of R & D money for battery tech.

2. Some folks don't want to bother having to retain a second car (when one is otherwise not needed) or having to rent.


Ok, but most families in the US and Canada have two cars, so surely one of those two could be a BEV.

3. With the advent of the Bolt, Tesla Model 3, and soon the Hyundai Kona EV, range is less of an issue, but recharging speed remains


Charging infrastructure is improving, but government could definitely play a bigger role in that. Big oil doesn't have to cover the health and environmental costs to society of burning fossil fuels - tax payers foot the bill for that. A federal, revenue neutral carbon tax where tax revenues are plowed into battery R&D and charging infrastructure would result in cheaper, longer range EVs and faster charging times too. All it takes is the political will...

4. Unless you have Tesla money, you're pretty much limited to hatchbacks (and soon small CUVs).


True, at least based on currently available BEVs, but many new BEVs will be available over the next 2 - 3 years, spanning many car categories. SUVs, crossovers, etc. Pickup trucks will be the last bastion of the red necks who could care less about the environment and feel it's their god given right to burn as much oil as they like - aka Trump supporters...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

RonDawg
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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Fri May 25, 2018 9:34 am

alozzy wrote:@RonDawg

1. Added cost over an equivalent


Valid points, but the reason that BEVs are still more expensive than ICE equivalents is not because they are inherently more expensive. Scale is the big advantage that ICE cars have over BEVs - that and a lack of R & D money for battery tech.


Battery is the #1 reason. Scale not so much if you are comparing cars that have both an ICEV and BEV version: VW eGolf, Ford Focus Electric, Kia Soul EV, Fiat 500e, etc.

2. Some folks don't want to bother having to retain a second car (when one is otherwise not needed) or having to rent.


Ok, but most families in the US and Canada have two cars, so surely one of those two could be a BEV.


Agreed, but for some reason North Americans still have this fear of "What if I have to suddenly take a 300 mile road trip?"

3. With the advent of the Bolt, Tesla Model 3, and soon the Hyundai Kona EV, range is less of an issue, but recharging speed remains


Charging infrastructure is improving, but government could definitely play a bigger role in that. Big oil doesn't have to cover the health and environmental costs to society of burning fossil fuels - tax payers foot the bill for that. A federal, revenue neutral carbon tax where tax revenues are plowed into battery R&D and charging infrastructure would result in cheaper, longer range EVs and faster charging times too. All it takes is the political will...


It's not so much the lack of infrastructure, but recharging speed. I'm not sure if we'll ever get to the point where we can add 300 miles' range in under 5 minutes like we can with an ICEV. That's a lot of wattage. It's also why I'm not convinced that BEV semi trucks will be roaming our interstates; truckers hate downtime ("If your wheels ain't turning, you ain't earning") and to have to recharge up to 8 hours worth of hauling 80k lbs during their 30 minute mandated break in 11 hours' of driving is going to take a mini-substation for each truck. It may work for in-city "day cab" usage.

4. Unless you have Tesla money, you're pretty much limited to hatchbacks (and soon small CUVs).


True, at least based on currently available BEVs, but many new BEVs will be available over the next 2 - 3 years, spanning many car categories. SUVs, crossovers, etc. Pickup trucks will be the last bastion of the red necks who could care less about the environment and feel it's their god given right to burn as much oil as they like - aka Trump supporters...


While I agree that more models will be coming out soon, as of right now if you don't want a hatchback, your choices for BEVs are quite limited.

As far as "Trump supporters", I know quite a few liberals who drive vehicles that are far larger and/or more powerful than their needs dictate (primarily SUVs). Wasting of resources is not restricted to the "deplorables."
Last edited by RonDawg on Fri May 25, 2018 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Blue Ocean 2012 Leaf SV, lost that 1st bar at 34 months/26,435 miles. Lease returned 2 months later. Final LeafStat figures: 225 Gids, 17.44 kWH, SOC 91.89%, SOH 82.36%, 69.49% HX, 54.57 Ahr, battery temp 61.8 F.
Now driving a 2015 VW eGolf SEL.

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Re: I think Leaf, Volt and Bolt are better for the Middle Class than Tesla

Fri May 25, 2018 9:38 am

I agree: For the middle class, the LEAF and Bolt are better than than the Model 3, simply because they are cheaper (until the SR battery becomes available).

But that article is twisted and confusing. The title "Chevy Volt is Better For The Middle Class Than Tesla Because Electricity Is Always Cheaper Than Gas" makes no sense; if electricity is cheaper than gas, then why get the Volt at all? Then the author adds statements like this:
Tesla is charging $0.26/kWH on its supercharging stations for their Model 3. Other charging stations charge you much higher rates that it is still cheaper to drive on gasoline than paying for electricity at these charging stations.
1. He's quoting the rate in California and assuming that's the same for everyone (it's not).
2. He implies this rate is specific to the Model 3 (it's not).
3. The 2nd sentence is just poorly written.

At the top of the article he says he's comparing a Volt to an S for the 'middle class'... but the S is not a middle class car. But then in the rest of the article he keeps mentioning the 3.
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17) 32K miTesla S 75D (3/17) 22K mi
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