still confused about installing a 2nd meter for SDGE EV Proj

I've read the whole other thread about 2nd meter installation; but I'm still a bit confused. Here's my situation:

I'm in the EV project (San Diego);
SDG&E is my provider;
I do not have solar;
I use very little electricity in my small home (averages around 200-250kWh per month year 'round), so so I virtually never go above the baseline of 303kWh.
My baseline Rate/kWh is $.07387
I figure to drive the Leaf an average of 450 miles per month

Question: Would it be financially beneficial to have a 2nd meter installed? :?

On average you'll be charging your car with about 150 kWh/mo assuming 3 mi / kWh. YMMV. Add that to 250 kWh and that gets you to 400 kWh/mo.

The baseline rate you quote isn't the total rate - it's appx double that - it looks like that's only the energy charge.

Using your baseline of 303 kWh, Tier 2 is 100-130%, Tier 3 is 130-200%, Tier 4 is 200%+.

Tier 2 is 304 - 394 kWh.
Tier 3 is 394 - 606 kWh.

Baseline is around 13c / kWh
Tier 2 is around 15c / kWh
Tier 3 is around 26c / kWh
Tier 4 is around 28c / kWh

The EV project TOU off-peak rates are supposed to be under 10c / kWh (where are those SDGE EV project rates, again, anyway?) - so it should be cheaper if you always charge off peak.

If you occasionally don't charge off peak, it will probably be about the same.

Anyway - that should get you nearly enough information to make an informed decision if someone can dig up the EV project TOU rates for SDGE...

Edit: Looks like this thread covers it: SDG&E introduces EV rate pilot

I believe the eliminated the low-spread of 14c off-peak 30c summer in favor of the two rates with higher spreads.

Rate 1: 14c off-peak, 27c on-peak
Rate 2: 7.6c off-peak, 30c on-peak
Rate 3: 6.7c off-peak, 38c on-peak

The rates above are simplified - in reality there are winter/summer super-off-peak, off-peak and peak rates...

Here's the simplest version:

IF you only charge at super-off-peak (midnight to 5AM), and you expect to use at least $5/mo in EVSE power, then you're the same or better off with a second meter.

derkraut said:

My baseline Rate/kWh is $.07387

Click to expand...

This just in from the Department of Redundancy Department since as I finished typing it I realized drees pretty much covered it all except my last paragraph.

As noted, 7.4c is just the energy charge portion...the baseline (tier 1) schedule DR total cost per kWh including the usage charge (~$.06) and DWR bond (~$.005) brings the total per kWh to ~$.138. That's the figure you should be comparing to the experimental rates. With the free second meter and experimental rate 2 or 3 (supposedly rate 1, the low spread rate with super off peak not appreciably different from current DR tier 1 is not being implemented), if you charge during super off peak, your 450 miles will cost you about $10 total, on top of your regular home bill which is probably around $30.

(450 miles at 3.2 miles per kWh is 140kWh).

If you just stick with one meter and schedule DR, you will go above tier 1 into tier 2. And maybe sometimes into tier 3. Your 140kWh will cost at least $20.

So the second meter will initially save you $10 a month or so.

I'd also account for the possibility that you many enjoy the very inexpensive, emission free driving so much that you end up putting more miles on the car than you anticipate (eg. you will be enthusiastic about being the one to drive when going somewhere with others, where before it might have been a tossup). That argues further in favor of the second meter. And, once the project is over, with the second meter you'll be in a position to utilize whatever new EV-only rates are on offer as a result of the experiment. Beyond that...what if your next car is also an EV? We declined the meter because we are on solar with excess intended for the car, but for anyone without, I can't see a reason to turn down the 2 meter setup.

Well....KUDOS to Drees, Groundloop & wsbca. Now I understand how it is going to play out. Since I understand that there is no charge for the (EV Project) 2nd meter, that surely looks like the way to go.

THANKS guys!

No charge for the 2nd meter IF the installation is "easy" and the EVProject covers all the install expense. Otherwise you would pay some of an "expensive" install, right?

Has the EVProject evaluated your install yet?

Doesn't the EVProject still "require" (in most cases) the 2nd meter?

garygid said:

Doesn't the EVProject still "require" (in most cases) the 2nd meter?

Click to expand...

No - if you don't want to pay for the 2nd meter or don't want the EVP TOU rates, you can forgo the 2nd meter. They will collect information from the Blink and your car.

garygid said:

No charge for the 2nd meter IF the installation is "easy" and the EVProject covers all the install expense. Otherwise you would pay some of an "expensive" install, right?

Has the EVProject evaluated your install yet?

Doesn't the EVProject still "require" (in most cases) the 2nd meter?

Click to expand...

EV Project hasn't evaluated my install yet. They did email me last week with the contract, which I signed and returned. I'm almost positive my Blink install will be simple. Present meter & service box are on an outside garage wall, about 5 feet from where the Leaf will be parked for charging. The inside of the service box is unobstructed/visible from inside the garage.

EVP paid for my second meter install as well as my Blink EVSE. (or rather, my Clipper Creek EVSE....the BLINK will be installed late next week).

You can always opt later to NOT use the meter/TOU rates. I figure it's easier for me to remember the TOU rates (IOW when I tell the EVSE to charge) than to wonder how far into Tier 1 or 2 I happen to be that month. :|

Jimmydreams said:

EVP paid for my second meter install as well as my Blink EVSE. (or rather, my Clipper Creek EVSE....the BLINK will be installed late next week).

You can always opt later to NOT use the meter/TOU rates. I figure it's easier for me to remember the TOU rates (IOW when I tell the EVSE to charge) than to wonder how far into Tier 1 or 2 I happen to be that month. :|

Click to expand...

Are there any issues with netmetering when you have a second meter for your EV?

ENIAC said:

Jimmydreams said:

EVP paid for my second meter install as well as my Blink EVSE. (or rather, my Clipper Creek EVSE....the BLINK will be installed late next week).

You can always opt later to NOT use the meter/TOU rates. I figure it's easier for me to remember the TOU rates (IOW when I tell the EVSE to charge) than to wonder how far into Tier 1 or 2 I happen to be that month. :|

Click to expand...

Are there any issues with netmetering when you have a second meter for your EV?

Click to expand...

No, my net metering is still the same. They simply take my total kWh usage for my main meter and subtract the reading from my EV meter and then do what they've always done. They bill me for me kWh usage on the EV meter at the EV TOU rates I was assigned.

Pretty easy stuff, really. :mrgreen:

garygid said:

No charge for the 2nd meter IF the installation is "easy" and the EVProject covers all the install expense. Otherwise you would pay some of an "expensive" install, right?

Has the EVProject evaluated your install yet?

Doesn't the EVProject still "require" (in most cases) the 2nd meter?

Click to expand...

Gary here in AZ I have SRP as my power company. I have a smart meter and it has A, B, C timers. On peak, OFF peak, and spare. They will be using the spare C timer.

Jimmydreams said:

No, my net metering is still the same. They simply take my total kWh usage for my main meter and subtract the reading from my EV meter and then do what they've always done. They bill me for me kWh usage on the EV meter at the EV TOU rates I was assigned.

Click to expand...

How do the two meters integrate with your PV system? If it's 1:00 PM and your PV system is generating 5000 watts and your house is using 200 watts and your EVSE is drawing 3000 watts, does the meter for the EVSE show a draw of 0 or 3000?

SanDust said:

Jimmydreams said:

No, my net metering is still the same. They simply take my total kWh usage for my main meter and subtract the reading from my EV meter and then do what they've always done. They bill me for me kWh usage on the EV meter at the EV TOU rates I was assigned.

Click to expand...

How do the two meters integrate with your PV system? If it's 1:00 PM and your PV system is generating 5000 watts and your house is using 200 watts and your EVSE is drawing 3000 watts, does the meter for the EVSE show a draw of 0 or 3000?

Click to expand...

The house meter would be showing the total of the house useage + EV usage minus the solar production = -1.8kW, and the EV meter would show 3kW. When it was time for the billing, SDG&E would read both the main and the EV meter. Whatever value was on the EV meter (in this case, 3Kw) gets subtracted from the house meter, which would bring the house meter bill to -4.8kW (which is correct if solar made 5kW and the house used .2kW). The EV meter bill would bill me at 3kW based on the TOU for that 3kW.

This way, the value on the EV meter gets billed at the TOU rates and the main meter will get net metered for the proper amount.

Confused?? :lol:

So your PV generation does not "offset" (or pay for) your EV usage?

I want my (now excess) PV generation to offset my EV usage so it is "free".

So, I can remain on whole-house net (tiered) metering and do EV charging any time (with the EV use just part of the "house"),

OR go on some whole-house (inc. EV use) TOU tariff.
Apparently I would have a "regular" TOU, perhaps one EV-TOU (I am not in EVProject), and perhaps one PV-TOU tariffs to chose between.

May I select one of the two "experimental" EV tariffs?
I expect not.

Here's a relatively easy way I'm thinking about my excess generation and the 2nd meter.

The super-off-peak on the 2nd meter will be roughly equivalent to what I'm getting paid for excess in Tier 1 territory on the first meter. So even if I'm generating a surplus and charging off the 2nd, it'll be roughly a wash and not work the trouble of figuring out when to just plug-in to Level 1 to dip from the surplus.

Getting "PAID"?

IF you have a YEARLY generation surplus, you MIGHT get paid a small amount from SDG&E. I might be wrong but I thought they were asking CPUC permission to pay only about 5 cents per kWh.

That is after they sell your Peak-time over-generation at 30 to 50 cents per kWh.

In my mind, not the game I want to play. With the one-meter system, when I generate a kWh at least my EV can "use" a FULL kWh, either then or later.

garygid said:

So your PV generation does not "offset" (or pay for) your EV usage?

I want my (now excess) PV generation to offset my EV usage so it is "free".

So, I can remain on whole-house net (tiered) metering and do EV charging any time (with the EV use just part of the "house"),

OR go on some whole-house (inc. EV use) TOU tariff.
Apparently I would have a "regular" TOU, perhaps one EV-TOU (I am not in EVProject), and perhaps one PV-TOU tariffs to chose between.

May I select one of the two "experimental" EV tariffs?
I expect not.

Click to expand...

Gary..

My solar does NOT directly offset my EV use.

But I look at it as a total-sum game...my main meter would charge me or credit me based on the power running into or out of it. Plain and simple. If I didn't have a separate EV meter, (and knowing my solar wouldn't cover both my house AND my EV) theres a chance I'd be paying more through the tier system than I would through the EV TOU system.

I'm only locked into this for 1 year, and the cost differences will be negligible, especially when compared to $4/gal gas. After the 12 months expires, I'll have a MUCH better handle on how my 60+ mile commute and subsequent EV energy usage plays on my total home electric bill.....at THAT point, I'll either continue with the separate EV meter or remove it and run everything off of my main meter.

The point is: with a separate EV meter I have options....without it, I don't.

garygid said:

Getting "PAID"?

IF you have a YEARLY generation surplus, you MIGHT get paid a small amount from SDG&E. I might be wrong but I thought they were asking CPUC permission to pay only about 5 cents per kWh.

Click to expand...

You'd be right if the cost to charge on the 2nd meter wasn't roughly equivalent to the ~Tier 1 rates I get paid for excess. But because they are, it's roughly a wash (I'll look up rates some time if I get around to it)

Jimmydreams said:

The point is: with a separate EV meter I have options....without it, I don't.

Click to expand...

Exactly.

garygid said:

No charge for the 2nd meter IF the installation is "easy" and the EVProject covers all the install expense. Otherwise you would pay some of an "expensive" install, right?
...
Doesn't the EVProject still "require" (in most cases) the 2nd meter?

Click to expand...

No on both.

SDG&E is paying for the second meter, and second meter installation. This is separate from the EVProject/ETec/Blink installation cost.

The second meter is optional.