it's turtles all the way down, at -13F

I am getting a turtle today. Turned the car off and on about 5 times, and get a turtle and "output power is limited" message after about 10 seconds. I was originally getting 12v battery alarms, so I charged the 12v with a Battery Minder. But now, "it's turtles all the way down." Ambient temp has warmed up to -14F outside (-13F on my dashboard). Battery has 1 temp bar. LeafSpy says battery temp is between -1F and -2F (sensors 1, 2 'and 4 reporting).

I charged the car to 100% yesterday (finished at 7pm) in anticipation of the battery heater sucking power all night long. However, at noon today, the car still claimed 100% SOC. If the battery is insulated enough that it never got colder than -1F, then that would make sense (that there was no power loss overnight). But if the battery is only -1F, then I don't understand the turtle.

Does the battery heater only work while the car is charging? Or does it kick in with an unplugged car?

The battery heater will start when the pack temp (not ambient temp) reaches about +7F, even if unplugged (if the car has at least 31% charge). So it appears that either the battery warmer isn't working, or your car has (or thinks it has) less than 30% charge.

It's possible that the battery has only cooled down to -1F, and is still on its way down . I believe I parked it with 4 bars (after I DCFC'd it to 70%) about 30 hours ago. Ambient temps have not gotten UP anywhere near -1F in those 30 hours, so if the battery is at -1F, either that's because the battery warmer was doing something, at least for a while; or because the pack temp has been dropping and has only now gotten down to -1F.

The car claimed 100% SOC when I first turned it on this afternoon. That dropped to 96% pretty quickly, so who knows. But definitely not below 30%.

I got a turtle only once before: last January, at 0F. Like today, there was just one 1 temp bar showing.
- http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=25077&hilit=turtle&start=10#p515352

If the battery's internal temp is below zero, then the warmer should be running.

You may have to set fire to it, like they did with the railroad tracks. It might be the only way to warm it up enough. Good luck!

Do all Leaf's have the pack warmers? It sounds like the pack is to cold to power the car, or maybe one of the warmers is broken and part of the pack is to cold?

BrockWI said:

Do all Leaf's have the pack warmers? It sounds like the pack is to cold to power the car, or maybe one of the warmers is broken and part of the pack is to cold?

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Beginning with mid (?) 2012 they all have them. I assume from the delivery date that he drives a 2017.

-13F is right on the edge of being cold enough for the electrolyte in a lead acid battery to freeze, or partially freeze if the specific gravity is low or high. Short of that, even at 0F the lead battery has 40% of the power it has at 80F. I suggest putting a incandescent work lamp near the lead battery to see if warming it helps. I have heard that when the 12v battery has low volts all sorts of weird things happen. A low temperature issue with the 12v lead battery seem more likely then an internal traction pack heating pad going out.


a lot of ICE cars had electrical issues today at -7F local, dash warning lights for random issues, a GM had the power assist steering go out. to get ahead of it I put a small heater under my car for an hour this morning to get everything above single digits before I drove, worked fine, range was really short, but it got me to work.

Had a related thought from all this extreme cold. If the battery pack sustains damage despite designed precautions such as heaters, is this covered by the comprehensive portion of an auto insurance policy? I don’t see this damage any different than when a hail storm trashed my Civic.

My 2016 Leaf SL did the same yesterday morning, with the turtle mode coming on when I initially started the car. Low was -25°F last night and it was of course plugged in all night. Anyway, when I took off it was just in reduced power mode for the first few miles and I gradually gained bubbles in both the power and regen mode.

Takk, Jotunheim. I thought of trying to warm the battery by using it (driving slowly), but I've heard that DCFC on a cold battery can damage it, so thought perhaps driving would too. Maybe driving below 30mph would be OK? Or maybe running the cabin heater in ECO (3kw) would be better (my guess is that driving 30mph uses about 5kw).

Vær så god, specialgreen!

I think you would be fine just driving it, as long as you don't drive on a freeway or in high power situations right away. This only happens once in a blue moon anyway - at least in SE Wisconsin. I always drive in ECO mode as well, but that would also likely help on the draw.

As you can see from the image, I still had about 5 of the power bubbles available, so this was fine with slow acceleration on local streets. In fact, it handled driving at 45 mph until I got to the freeway in about 5 miles and the turtle mode disappeared. The only thing I noticed was the relatively slow acceleration from a stop, but was more than manageable for the 2 stops I dealt with.

Jason

specialgreen said:

Takk, Jotunheim. I thought of trying to warm the battery by using it (driving slowly), but I've heard that DCFC on a cold battery can damage it, so thought perhaps driving would too. Maybe driving below 30mph would be OK? Or maybe running the cabin heater in ECO (3kw) would be better (my guess is that driving 30mph uses about 5kw).

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The idea is that the reduced power availability (bubbles) keeps you in the safe zone for the battery. Each bubble represents about 10kw.

As an update, after -25F this morning, I waited until the -7F afternoon heat and I disconnected the trickle charger and tried to "start" , but I got warnings (Red-12v-Battery and the Yellow-Car+"!"), and no "GreenCarGo" icon at all (not even the GreenCarGo + YellowTurtle that I got yesterday ). I plugged in the L2 and it would not start charging, either. The 12v battery voltage dropped from 13v to under 12v over about 30 seconds. This was after sitting 24 hours on 1.5A trickle, so it's possible that my 12v is unable to hold a charge. If I can get a GreenCarGo in tomorrow's +22F heat wave, I'll drive it to the dealer and ask for a 12v battery test. If no Green Car, then maybe I need to have it towed.

It can get that cold here. I better add some of my own battery heaters that work when I want them to work.

+4F this morning, and the Leaf "started" as if there was never anything wrong. LeafSpy shows the pack at 1.3F, 8mV max cell diff. I drove it a couple miles with no surprises. It's charging L2 just fine. I'm happy, but also a bit frustrated that it could go from being a brick for two days to happy overnight.

* update * drove 50 miles this morning, no issues.

specialgreen said:

Takk, Jotunheim. I thought of trying to warm the battery by using it (driving slowly), but I've heard that DCFC on a cold battery can damage it, so thought perhaps driving would too. Maybe driving below 30mph would be OK? Or maybe running the cabin heater in ECO (3kw) would be better (my guess is that driving 30mph uses about 5kw).

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Lithium ion batteries have potential safety issues charging quickly at colder temperatures but are happy to discharge except that power is reduced due to the chemical reactions slowing down when cold. The battery management controller knows about the charging safety issue (lithium metal potentially being “plated” into the anode) and prevents unsafe levels of charging or regen.

So, you should feel confident to just drive and the car will take care of the details. It sounds like the only real issue is the car’s 12V battery. Perhaps it needs to be replaced if it’s too weak to operate at around 0F.