2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

[TomT]

That is literally identical to where my 2011 was at a similar age and mileage. This is yet another data point showing that the 2013 battery is no better in degradation than the 2011 and 2012...

his GID was 259 and mine was 250.

 

[dgpcolorado]

There was some conjecture that the 2013 battery was better... This would seem to put that to rest!

Not necessarily. There was also some speculation that the early production 2013 LEAF batteries weren't much, if at all, better than 2011/2012 LEAFs but that later in the production run the battery changed. (Based on Gid meter readings of new cars IIRC.)

There remains a possibility that the lizard battery was introduced prior to 2015 MY production, perhaps late in 2013 or sometime in the 2014 MY.

It does seem clear that early 2013 MY LEAFs aren't noticeably better than older LEAFs. But I think that's all we can say at this point.

JMO, of course.

 

[Pinzgauer]

There was some conjecture that the 2013 battery was better... This would seem to put that to rest!

Not necessarily. There was also some speculation that the early production 2013 LEAF batteries weren't much, if at all, better than 2011/2012 LEAFs but that later in the production run the battery changed. (Based on Gid meter readings of new cars IIRC.)

There remains a possibility that the lizard battery was introduced prior to 2015 MY production, perhaps late in 2013 or sometime in the 2014 MY.

I'm wondering if this might be the case as my '13 experience was radically different than much of what I read here.

Just turned in a late model year 2013 SV. 28600 miles in GA, charged pretty much daily to 100%. Tried to avoid charging if not below 80%, but did do it if required. (My commute requires full charge)

Had not lost any bars or apparent capacity when I turned it in.

It's also of note that apparently the 2015's do not have any provision for 80% charge. I know the S does not.

From an engineering perspective, repeated top-offs of Li-Ions at 90%+ is not good, especially in higher temps. But my view is some of the 100% charge dire predictions that have become folkloare are a bit overdone. And I suspect are entangled in hostile environment issues.

2015 S plus QC
2013 SV with F07 QC (Kept for 28500 miles, very good experience, no bar loss even with 100% charging)

 

[dhanson865]

So, do all of you think Nissan is lying, in the quote (below) I posted on page four?

You do realize it's much cooler in the UK than in the US don't you?..

What part of heat kills the batteries have you not caught up with?

And are you unaware of how severe use of a LEAF, in both kWh throughput and high kW charging, increases battery temperatures?

Just what US city's battery temperature for a LEAF with normal use, do you think this LEAF's battery temperature experience was comparable to, it being driven (on average) well over 4k miles per month, and receiving two or three DC charges (on average) each day?

Taylor SF's 2011 LEAF probably had a significantly cooler average battery temp, but it didn't make it to 80k with all 12 bars.

UPDATE: June 1 (2013) - I lost first bar last night at 78,600 miles.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12781&hilit=bar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't think Taxi use in the UK is anywhere near as damaging to the battery as casually driving around Washington State is here.

Go ahead and use Stoatys battery model to figure out the difference. The temps are so low in the UK it'll swamp the difference in miles and ChaDemo use.

I entered:
London, England
4.5 miles/kWh
7 days a week in sun
100,000 miles
mfg date 6-13-13 (picked a random build date)
delivery date 6-13-13
date of reading 5-21-25 (date of the article)

and it gave me

Prediction Tab Aging Factor 0.72
Prediction Tab Solar Loading 1.00

Calendar Loss Cycling Loss Solar Loading Loss
Relative Loss 37.25% 62.75% 0.00%

Thats 0% solar loss in UK

do the same for Seatle, WA and we get

Prediction Tab Aging Factor 0.72
Prediction Tab Solar Loading 1.11

Calendar Loss Cycling Loss Solar Loading Loss
Relative Loss 33.47% 56.83% 9.70%

an extra 10% loss due to solar loading in Seattle vs London

do the same for Atlanta and we get

Prediction Tab Aging Factor 0.96
Prediction Tab Solar Loading 1.16

Calendar Loss Cycling Loss Solar Loading Loss
Relative Loss 30.91% 55.38% 13.71%


I don't know if there is a city in the US that is cold enough to equate what that taxi saw in the UK.

 

[TomT]

It went away earlier than the 2015s to allow Nissan to game the EPA range ratings...

[It's also of note that apparently the 2015's do not have any provision for 80% charge. I know the S does not.

 

[edatoakrun]

...are you unaware of how severe use of a LEAF, in both kWh throughput and high kW charging, increases battery temperatures?

Just what US city's battery temperature for a LEAF with normal use, do you think this LEAF's battery temperature experience was comparable to, it being driven (on average) well over 4k miles per month, and receiving two or three DC charges (on average) each day?

Taylor SF's 2011 LEAF probably had a significantly cooler average battery temp, but it didn't make it to 80k with all 12 bars...

dhanson865
I don't think Taxi use in the UK is anywhere near as damaging to the battery as casually driving around Washington State is here.

Go ahead and use Stoatys battery model to figure out the difference. The temps are so low in the UK it'll swamp the difference in miles and ChaDemo use...

an extra 10% loss due to solar loading in Seattle vs London...

Both annual average, and Summer high averages, look to be about one-to-two degrees F higher in Seattle than (as you specified, though not the actual location) London

http://www.london.climatemps.com/temperatures.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You really believe that small increase in ambient temperatures will "swamp the difference in miles and ChaDemo use"?

As you may be aware, I've never seen much value in Stoaty's battery model as it is designed to match the inaccurate LBC reports of capacity loss, rather than actual capacity loss.

But just out of curiosity, since you suggest Stoaty's battery model is accurate, how much less than 15% gid loss/one capacity bar loss do you believe it predicts for 100,000 miles of London Taxi use?

How many 100,000's of miles do you think Stoaty's battery model predicts a cab will travel before it reaches ~70% capacity EOL?

One comment on your assumptions.

I think your 4.5 m/kWh average efficiency is probably much too high, especially considering the load of the cabin heater in a cold-climate cab, unless they issue all their passengers electric jackets like Taylor SF wore in the Winter...

 

[GRA]

FWIW:

http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Truro-weather-averages/Cornwall/GB.aspx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.currentresults.com/Weather/Washington/Places/seattle-temperatures-by-month-average.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, the average highs in Seattle, June through September are 6, 6, 6, and 5 degrees C ( 10.8 and 9 deg. F.) higher than in Truro, Cornwall. For St. Austell it's not quite as large a difference: http://www.worldweatheronline.com/v2/weather-averages.aspx?q=PL25" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An average of 4, 4, 5 and 4 deg. C (7.2 and 9 deg. F) warmer in Seattle for the same months.

 

[Stoaty]

That's 0% solar loss in UK

There is 0% solar loading loss everywhere except the United States, because there wasn't any data on which to calculate a solar loading factor. The model only accounts for solar loading in the U.S.

London and Seattle have the same Aging Factor in the Battery Aging Model.

 

[dhanson865]

I think your 4.5 m/kWh average efficiency is probably much too high, especially considering the load of the cabin heater in a cold-climate cab, unless they issue all their passengers electric jackets like Taylor SF wore in the Winter...

first off if I put in 1.5 or 3.0 instead of 4.5 it doesn't change the solar factor. Go ahead and try it. Stoaty's model doesn't seem to use the m/kWh unless someone broke the spreadsheet after he posted it.

but just for fun lets think about taxi use in the UK for a minute.

UK congestion means low average speeds compared to the US, unless you know something about this particular cabs fares that I don't.

Long work days mean continuous heat not just bursts to warm it up.

Charging sessions allow for heating the car from shore power instead of the battery.

 

[edatoakrun]

FWIW:

...For St. Austell it's not quite as large a difference: http://www.worldweatheronline.com/v2/weather-averages.aspx?q=PL25" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

An average of 4, 4, 5 and 4 deg. C (7.2 and 9 deg. F) warmer in Seattle for the same months.

Those are average highs. Summer daily averages (cooler nights) show about half that much difference.

Looks like the average annual temperature is about one degree F higher in Seattle, not that it matters very much.

Both climates are so cool year-round that ambient temperatures never contribute very significantly to high LEAF battery temperatures.

What does increase LEAF battery temperatures greatly, even in a cool climate (see the AVTA study for average battery temperatures in Phoenix during the Winter) is very high daily kWh throughput and DC charging.

Taylor SF (and the Cornish Cabbies even more so) increased their battery pack temperatures greatly through the high kWh throughput and high kW charges required by their severe use, and both effectively relocated their battery packs into a much warmer climate than that experienced by nearby LEAFs with packs with more normal usage.

Wish we had some real data, not just the gid reports or capacity bars (Taylor SF, how about a few metered recharges from ~turtle to "100%"?) on either of these packs.

 

[edatoakrun]

...London and Seattle have the same Aging Factor in the Battery Aging Model.

Well, since you're here Stoaty, why don't you give it a try?

...how much less than 15% gid loss/one capacity bar loss do you believe it predicts for 100,000 miles of London Taxi use?

How many 100,000's of miles do you think Stoaty's battery model predicts a cab will travel before it reaches ~70% capacity EOL?

One comment on your assumptions.

I think your 4.5 m/kWh average efficiency is probably much too high, especially considering the load of the cabin heater in a cold-climate cab, unless they issue all their passengers electric jackets like Taylor SF wore in the Winter...

BTW, how does the model account for kWh throughput not reflected in m/kWh?

My LEAF gets ~25% of its kWh from regen (mountain driving) and I'd think Taxi use might have a similarly higher-than-average regen factor.

 

[edatoakrun]

More on Wizzy the Wondercab at ~7:40 into this Fully Charged Video:

Published on Jun 6, 2015

It's a battery special

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIdUdhJxIt0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I like the series, but RL seems to be confusing the % charge with % capacity.

If this LEAF still has 98% of its "new" capacity after over 100k miles, I'll eat my on-board charger...

 

[dhanson865]

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*.

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you still impressed now that we know it is on the edge of losing the first bar? It'll keep that first bar a few months more but it isn't like the battery hasn't degraded.

http://insideevs.com/100000-mile-nissan-leaf-taxi-shows-12-5-battery-degradation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*.

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you still impressed now that we know it is on the edge of losing the first bar?...

What would make you believe that I have ever been "impressed" by any LBC data report from any LEAF?

(page 4) I suggest, again, that anyone trying to monitor the actual battery capacity loss, of any LEAF from any MY, DO NOT rely on the LBC.

It is becoming clear that either there was a dramatic improvement in battery design ~with the 2013 MY, or (far more likely, IMO) the LBC was simply altered to report higher gids, and fewer capacity bar losses.

I wonder how long after (or before?) Andy Palmer was harangued by irate-gid-meter-wielding-LEAF-drivers in Phoenix in 2012, that the changes were made?

Given the performance noted below, You have to wonder if the Pessimistic Gauges, may now be overly optimistic...

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*...

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But if this LEAF's battery is ever actually measured using range/recharge capacity tests, and it can be shown that the loss of capacity reported by its LBC is reasonably accurate, then, yes, I would be impressed.

As I also will be, if This LEAF eventually completes anywhere from 200k to 300k miles before it's OE pack reaches EOL at ~70% OE capacity.

Those results would tend to indicate significant improvement in capacity retention in the 2013 LEAF packs, over the 2011s.

I'm on track to not get much more (or less) than ~90k miles/10 years (until ~70% OE capacity) from my 2011 pack.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Busy Wizzy Hits 100,000 Mile Landmark

The Nissan LEAF that sparked an electric taxi revolution in Cornwall has clocked up its 100,000th mile without losing a single bar of battery life*.

http://www.newsroom.nissan-europe.com/uk/en-gb/Media/Media.aspx?mediaid=132843" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Are you still impressed now that we know it is on the edge of losing the first bar? It'll keep that first bar a few months more but it isn't like the battery hasn't degraded.

http://insideevs.com/100000-mile-nissan-leaf-taxi-shows-12-5-battery-degradation/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And why wouldn't we be impressed? Does this not sound like progress? Granted the amount of miles in the short time period probably added 10,000-20,000 miles to that first bar but then again it sounds like you would not be impressed with any level of degradation.

But 100,000 miles for the first bar. 25,000-40,000 for each additional bar and ya, I am already impressed.

 

[RegGuheert]

But 100,000 miles for the first bar. 25,000-40,000 for each additional bar and ya, I am already impressed.

Me, too! This is a very nice improvement (which Nissan declined to promise was coming in 2013 when I asked them about it)!

I wonder how much more improvement the "Lizard Battery" gives.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

But 100,000 miles for the first bar. 25,000-40,000 for each additional bar and ya, I am already impressed.

Me, too! This is a very nice improvement (which Nissan declined to promise was coming in 2013 when I asked them about it)!

I wonder how much more improvement the "Lizard Battery" gives.

I agree that an "overnight" perfect solution would have been shocking. What they have done is measurable improvement that transcends the multitudes of various scenarios that tend to mask incremental steps.

This is the whole crux of the battery improvement process. We have been seeing incremental steps but they are being masked by the randomness of the commutes, driving patterns, terrains and weather we have to put up with.

It was hinted that the battery tweaking process was ongoing and now we are starting to see "inconclusive" evidence to that effect.

we have gone from 281 GIDs, 66.50 Ahr in the 2011 to 284 GIDs, 67.36 ahr in the 2014's (or very late 2013's like mine ) to 292 GIDs in the 2015's. all of this without any real fanfare from Nissan about this other than the
forced "lizard battery" affair.

But its my belief that we did not encourage or force Nissan to do anything. the Lizard Battery has always been part of the plan even before the first Arizona car was sold.

Now the jury is still out on the level of improvement so we will have to see but my 2013 (manufactured in Nov, 2013) is now seeing levels near what earlier 2013's started with. So I may have a 2013 in name but I am pretty sure my lineage is 2014

 

[dhanson865]

And why wouldn't we be impressed? Does this not sound like progress? Granted the amount of miles in the short time period probably added 10,000-20,000 miles to that first bar but then again it sounds like you would not be impressed with any level of degradation.

But 100,000 miles for the first bar. 25,000-40,000 for each additional bar and ya, I am already impressed.

Losing 1 bar in 2 to 3 years in Washington State or anywhere in the UK isn't that impressive because the same happened for the 2011/2012 Leafs.

If a 2013 in Arizona loses one bar in 3 years then yes that would impress me.

We have a wiki tracking hundreds of bar losers for 2011/2012 so when the appropriate time has passed and we can compare the rate for 2013 cars that will impress me.

It isn't about 1 car, it's about all the cars as a whole.

We'll have a better idea by the end of the year. If the bar losses are drastically improved then I will have been proven wrong in my bet (I bought a used 2012 SL with one bar lost very recently instead of paying extra for a 2013 so you can say I put my money where my mouth is).

I'm literally watching my SOH% and AHr drop month to month right now (just as expected based on the data from the wiki) so if I'm proven wrong it'll be painfully obvious to me and I won't shy away from admitting my error and over analyzing it for the next few years as the wiki updates come in.

 

[dhanson865]

To quote Mwalsh

Main factors (in order of importance) when it comes to 2011/2012 LEAF battery degradation – HEAT (the big one); time; cycling.

Heat isn't an issue in the UK
Time has been less for the 2013
cycling was less important so the miles while nice aren't important to me

Personally I'm only worried about heat and time. Show me a 2011 or 2012 that lost multiple bars in cold climate.
and/or
Show me a 2013 that didn't lose bars in a hot climate.

either of those would change my opinion some, multiples of those would change it even more.

as a reminder the 4 bar losers in the wiki are

AZ x11 (out to 45 months)
CA x9 (out to 48 months)
TX x3 (out to 42 months)
FL
unknown
WA

and the 3 bar losers are

AZ x21 (out to 28 months)
TX x5 (out to 40 months)
CA x5 (out to 36 months)
FL x3 (out to 30 months)

It'll be AZ that I'm watching most for 2013 battery improvement with TX and FL of interest.


we are 29 months in on the 2013 car made in Jan but only 18 months in on a 2013 made in Dec. It'll take some time to get to the point were they've all seen two summers.

19,493 2011 + 2012 Leafs sold in US
22,610 2013 Leafs sold in US
30,200 2014 leafs sold in US

I guess the next question is how close to that distribution is the mynissanleaf membership? We specifically need data from 2013s now as we have tons of data on 2011/2012 and there isn't much data yet on bar losses from 2013.

A. it may be that 2013 batteries do handle heat better
B. it may be that we just haven't gotten the data yet to show no change.
C. it may be the people most likely to notice loss avoided buying 2013 Leafs

I'm not ready to call it or rule out any possibility.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

And why wouldn't we be impressed? Does this not sound like progress? Granted the amount of miles in the short time period probably added 10,000-20,000 miles to that first bar but then again it sounds like you would not be impressed with any level of degradation.

But 100,000 miles for the first bar. 25,000-40,000 for each additional bar and ya, I am already impressed.

Losing 1 bar in 2 to 3 years in Washington State or anywhere in the UK isn't that impressive because the same happened for the 2011/2012 Leafs.

If a 2013 in Arizona loses one bar in 3 years then yes that would impress me.

We have a wiki tracking hundreds of bar losers for 2011/2012 so when the appropriate time has passed and we can compare the rate for 2013 cars that will impress me.

It isn't about 1 car, it's about all the cars as a whole.

We'll have a better idea by the end of the year. If the bar losses are drastically improved then I will have been proven wrong in my bet (I bought a used 2012 SL with one bar lost very recently instead of paying extra for a 2013 so you can say I put my money where my mouth is).

I'm literally watching my SOH% and AHr drop month to month right now (just as expected based on the data from the wiki) so if I'm proven wrong it'll be painfully obvious to me and I won't shy away from admitting my error and over analyzing it for the next few years as the wiki updates come in.

well now you have to cite the 2011-12 that went 100,000 miles ANYWHERE with all 12 bars before we can continue this discussion and keep in mind; my statement should include most of the 2013's but I think I have made that clear enough

FYI; Steve Marsh was a 3 bar loser when he hit 100,000 miles on his 2011