2013 Low Battery Capacity AHr Battery Degradation

[QueenBee]

You could have spared yourself all that driving. You had 253 Gids on a full charge. So that is, ((281-253)/281)*100 = 10% degradation.

Have you read this thread? THat's the issue. The stats make one expect to have degradation but the real world tests seem to indicate that isn't true for these cars.

 

[stjohnh]

Well, I couldn't replicate the pristine conditions above, but I did record some data on my experience going from 100% on the dash to Turtle.

Date & Time         Mileage QCs L1/L2   SOH     AHr     GIDs    Charge Display  SOC
3/23/2014 15:00:00  797     6   62      89%     58.38   253     100%            97.3%
3/26/2014 8:32:00   879     6   62      89%     58.43   26      10%             17.3%
3/26/2014 10:22:00  897     6   62      89%     58.43   5       Turtle          3.1%

Some things to consider:

• Covered 100 miles
• Very conservative driving (4.5 miles/kWh I think, not sure how to verify)
• Took place over 4 days
• Mix of highway and urban driving
• Light rain on and off the last few days
• Temps ranging from 45-60 F

So you got 100 miles range. Do you have a problem with that? Sounds to me like you have a normal Leaf.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Driving 100 miles alone doesn't prove anything. I have driven 100 miles on my 2011 when the battery was down by atleast 10% or more. It all depends on what overall efficiency the car was driven over that 100 miles.

100 miles to turtle at 4.5 miles/kWh is around 22.2 kWh. I thought the usable capacity is only 21 kWh. Thats confusing.

 

[crabasa]

So you got 100 miles range. Do you have a problem with that? Sounds to me like you have a normal Leaf.

I don't know. I drove as conservatively as I could, and most of my mileage was off the highway and in the temperate climate of Seattle. So it seems like 100 miles is the best possible case for a scenario where range means nothing to me (daily commuting). My next range test will cover what I'm actually concerned about: highway miles during road trips.

100 miles to turtle at 4.5 miles/kWh is around 22.2 kWh. I thought the usable capacity is only 21 kWh. Thats confusing.

The 4.5 is an estimate on my part based on daily aggregate data from Carwings. What's the accurate way to measure this?

 

[mkjayakumar]

The 4.5 is an estimate on my part based on daily aggregate data from Carwings. What's the accurate way to measure this?

Oh, my!. You should have reset the efficiency counter before you started at full charge. I do this almost everyday when I pull out of my garage just to keep track of how efficiently I am driving that day.

Alternatively you could find out how much energy you consumed or put in using Carwings too, but I have never used that website.

Without the efficiency value for that 100 mile drive it is impossible to make any judgement on the capacity of your battery.

 

[crabasa]

Oh, my!. You should have reset the efficiency counter before you started at full charge.

I did. But I don't see where the final average miles/kWh is. There's a bar chart when you go to "History" but it's hard to read a precise value from that chart. There was also a value on display that would fluctuate as I drove. Seemed like that number was more realtime. Lastly, there was a value on the driver display which never seems to change (seems pegged at 3.8).

 

[QueenBee]

Oh, my!. You should have reset the efficiency counter before you started at full charge.

I did. But I don't see where the final average miles/kWh is. There's a bar chart when you go to "History" but it's hard to read a precise value from that chart. There was also a value on display that would fluctuate as I drove. Seemed like that number was more realtime. Lastly, there was a value on the driver display which never seems to change (seems pegged at 3.8).

So that 3.8 is what you want to reset. If you flip through the display you'll see how many hours of driving, miles, average speed, etc. that number is based on. Once you reset it using the little buttons on the left those will all be reset to 0 and the 3.8 will fluctuate all over as you drive until it's built up enough of an average that it's a bit more constant. Using that though you would have a pretty good idea how much energy your "full" to "empty" drive used and thus how much capacity you have.

 

[stjohnh]

Oh, my!. You should have reset the efficiency counter before you started at full charge.

I did. But I don't see where the final average miles/kWh is. There's a bar chart when you go to "History" but it's hard to read a precise value from that chart. There was also a value on display that would fluctuate as I drove. Seemed like that number was more realtime. Lastly, there was a value on the driver display which never seems to change (seems pegged at 3.8).

Well, since it seems that your average driving efficiency is 3.8 mi/kwh, if you were driving as you usually do, the 100 miles you drove is unexpectedly high. At the 3.8, most leafs would get 80-85 miles. Unless you want to do more testing because you are curious, I think you should just enjoy your absolutely normal Leaf. Your car is fine. Just drive it and enjoy.

 

[crabasa]

Well, since it seems that your average driving efficiency is 3.8 mi/kwh

That's the average for the life of the car. My average for my range test was approximately 4.5 kWh, based on:

A) Me watching my efficiency like a hawk as I drove

B) The bar chart in "History" after I reset it.

--Carter

 

[stjohnh]

Well, since it seems that your average driving efficiency is 3.8 mi/kwh

That's the average for the life of the car. My average for my range test was approximately 4.5 kWh, based on:

A) Me watching my efficiency like a hawk as I drove

B) The bar chart in "History" after I reset it.

--Carter

Carter,

As one of the other posts suggests, the way to get a somewhat accurate efficiency reading is to reset the display that you see over the steering wheel to zero at the start of the range test.

But you are missing my point. You have given us plenty of information to conclude that you have a perfectly fine Leaf, even though you didn't do the range test in the "forum standard" manner.

 

[DaveEV]

Very conservative driving (4.5 miles/kWh I think, not sure how to verify)

If you actually drove at 4.5 mi/kWh, then your battery is fine just as expected for a new LEAF. What you want to do is reset the dash's mi/kWh meter after your 100% charge and then note the value at the end of the test (and at other times as appropriate as well).

100 mi / 4.5 mi/kWh = 22.2 kWh usable which is above what's normally accepted as "normal" for a new LEAF (anything over 21 kWh).

Also note that large amount of miles driven between 26 GIDs to Turtle at 5 GIDs, 22 miles.

Even at 5+ mi/kWh one might expect about 6 miles of range at most, but you got 22 miles! That's even well above the range one would expect to get from LBW (49 GIDs).

This is just another '13 LEAF with low GID readings hiding capacity down below LBW. Expect your GID readings to shoot up after this trip down to turtle as the LBC re-calibrates.

 

[stjohnh]

Very conservative driving (4.5 miles/kWh I think, not sure how to verify)

This is just another '13 LEAF with low GID readings hiding capacity down below LBW. Expect your GID readings to shoot up after this trip down to turtle as the LBC re-calibrates.

While a couple of others with 2013 Leafs with low Gid readings have reported a substantial increase after turtle, that has not been my experience. Minimal change in GIDs at full charge, capacity, SOH, Hx, etc.

I stopped using GIDs last year after I realized the GID reading was useless for judging the range left (which is what I really want to know in day-to-day driving), especially at low battery charge. GIDs readings for these 2013 Leafs are extremely non-li near (miles remaining vs GIDs).

I routinely drive my cars below VLBW and need to know how much juice is left. For these 2013 Leafs, the simplest way to judge range at low charge is to use the formula SOC-4=miles remaining (using LeafSpy SOC, not dash SOC)(assuming 4-4.5mi/kwh driving style) This works quite well (within 1 mile until the last fuel bar disappears). The last fuel bar disappears at 6-7mi remaining until turtle. Remaining range after last fuel bar disappears is more complicated, and using the lowest cell-pair voltage has given me the most useful result as I get very near turtle. For those reading this, this only pertains to 2013 Leafs with capacity readings in the 59-62 range.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Also note that large amount of miles driven between 26 GIDs to Turtle at 5 GIDs, 22 miles.

18 miles and not 22. But still that is very high. Almost a Gid a mile. So 18 miles driven in 21 Gids = 1.6kWh, or 11 miles / kWh. Not possible. The only explanation is the Gids are completely non-linear towards the bottom, giving more credence to the theory that a lot of charge is hidden in the last two bars.

I myself have seen GoM reporting 20 miles at LBW in my 2014. In 2011 though, LBW is almost always 8 or 9 miles, irrespective of the style of driving.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I stopped using GIDs last year after I realized the GID reading was useless for judging the range left (which is what I really want to know in day-to-day driving), especially at low battery charge. GIDs readings for these 2013 Leafs are extremely non-li near (miles remaining vs GIDs)...

There never has been any evidence that GIDs are a consistently accurate means of measuring present kWh capacity, remaining range, or the total available battery capacity (from "100%" charge to your desired low SOC) on any LEAF.

No idea why so much effort is being made by some of the posters on this forum to pretend otherwise.

So, I would also caution you, and every other LEAF driver, against using LBC data to estimate your battery "degradation" in the future.

My LEAF (pre-P3227) currently shows an app-indicated 53.90 AHr (81.36%) (its come up from ~79.5% in the last few weeks- my battery must be de-degrading!) but I have experienced no loss of range over the last ~31 months and ~23k miles, on my regular test route.

...These results are fairly representative of the other ~30 other range test I have done on this same route, as varying with different ambient/battery temperatures, different speeds, and different tire pressures, as well as what I've seen on my regular commute, and on longer trips.

I have experienced no noticeable loss of range.

Whatever loss of available battery capacity my leaf has experienced over the last two years has evidently been offset (and slightly exceeded by) efficiency gains, by both the driver and/or vehicle...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are other means to calculate actual changes in ABC on a LEAF, even one showing the expected increasing efficiency over time, but it's difficult, IMO, to determine for a LEAF (like mine) which has experienced such a small loss in actual available battery capacity from new.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

My question is: what kind of range am I looking for? I know the answer varies based on driving style, elevation, type of road, temp, etc. But what is the range of the mileage I should look for? I saw a post earlier in this thread of someone who went 114 miles on a charge.

I'm trying to evaluate whether I should pursue a remedy with my dealer (car or battery swap) or whether my car is "fine". Would love everyone's thoughts. I will post my data once I'm done with my test.

--Carter

my advice is to rent one or negotiate and extended test drive. your range is so dependent upon you that all we can give is personal experiences but without a baseline covering YOUR personal situation, its all really a lot of guesswork that is complicated especially if you have no previous EV knowledge.

i can tell you I am getting about 80 miles during less than stellar weather, driving rather recklessly (ie; over the speed limit) but the speed limit here is 60 and the average speed during most of the time I am on the freeway is closer to 40-50 mph.

but you might not get 75 miles. my idea of fast maybe not even qualify as your idea of normal. you may not have to deal with traffic chokepoints every mile on a 20 mile stretch of I-5 like I do every morning and afternoon...

to relate; I took my Son to lunch on a Sunday afternoon. traffic minimal for 90% of the trip so drove 60-65 mph. went 93.5 miles on a beautiful dry sunny day. a few days later, drove 85.6 miles in pouring rain ( we are in the process of obliterating the March rain record here) and had to slow to 50 mph for the last 25 miles to make it home with a lesser charge (7 GIDs) than the longer trip. now slowing down was a good thing anyway since most of I-5 was below 50 mph anyway due to the weather but it all illustrates the fact that when talking range, EVERYTHING matters

 

[brettcgb]

You could have spared yourself all that driving. You had 253 Gids on a full charge. So that is, ((281-253)/281)*100 = 10% degradation.

That's far better than the 199 GIDs I get these days.
Hx~52%, SOH=72, 68 L3 charges, 2240 L1/L2.
Regeneration is non-existent when battery temperatures <78F.
Air temperature is starting to reach 85-90F, the battery gets to 90-95F after a long hard day of driving.

Sometime during the next 2 months, I'm expecting that Hx hits 50% as SOH hits 70, and I lose the forth battery bar. Then I'm expecting a hot battery pack as a warranty replacement.

I'm beginning to think the Leaf battery pack could really benefit from a liquid cooling loop to keep the battery temperature below 125F (I assume it got at least that hot last summer.)

 

[Mottyski82]

Just putting in some data I got tonight from LEAF spy for my 2013 SV with 6500 miles.
Amp hours of the battery pack: 66.86 --- @ 34% SOC (98 GIDS or 35% GIDS).
I'm hoping the numbers stay looking good after the first 100% and 80% charges (GID counts) I do after getting the LEAF spy and OBD2 today.

 

[Leafdom]

One of the topics covered in this long thread is the hiding of capacity below LBW and VLBW for the 13 Leafs, which I have. I do have the LeafDD but don't use it very often. I have read a lot of these threads, but certainly not all. In so doing, I have gotten thoroughly confused about how many miles I may have left below low battery warnings. What I would like to do is utilize my low end capacity more, and not always charge up too early.

So, can anyone kindly just give me the basics on how to figure out for my car how to drive at levels below the low battery warnings? How should I figure out what is left, how many miles I can drive, what the specific signs are (gids, battery bars, SOC, etc), what is best to monitor and trust? Sorry if you think this is covered and clear, but I'm confused by lots of posts that seem to say different things.

Cheers!
Leafdom

 

[stjohnh]

One of the topics covered in this long thread is the hiding of capacity below LBW and VLBW for the 13 Leafs, which I have. I do have the LeafDD but don't use it very often. I have read a lot of these threads, but certainly not all. In so doing, I have gotten thoroughly confused about how many miles I may have left below low battery warnings. What I would like to do is utilize my low end capacity more, and not always charge up too early.

So, can anyone kindly just give me the basics on how to figure out for my car how to drive at levels below the low battery warnings? How should I figure out what is left, how many miles I can drive, what the specific signs are (gids, battery bars, SOC, etc), what is best to monitor and trust? Sorry if you think this is covered and clear, but I'm confused by lots of posts that seem to say different things.

Cheers!
Leafdom

OK, here it is---- (I drive below VLBW at least once per week, below zero fuel bars at least once a month).

If you don't want to use the min cell voltage info you can just set your trip indicator to zero miles when the last fuel bar disappears and assume you will hit turtle when you hit 6 miles.

Conditions: driving at 4.5mi/kwh, 5 temperature bars, 2013 LEAF with capacity showing 59-61 AHr. (I don't know if any of this applies to any other LEAFS except the "low capacity" 2013s)

Estimate range to turtle by using the formula SOC-4= Distance to Turtle (DTT) use this formula from full charge clear down to when the last fuel bar goes. This works at LBW, VLBW and until the last fuel bar disappears. SOC is measured by LeafSpy, etc (NOT dash indication). Subtract 10% if 4 temperature bars or driving 4mi/kwh (ie 65 indicated speed), subtract 30% if driving 3.0-3.5 mi/kwh (i.e. 70 indicated speed).

DTT when last fuel bar disappears is 6-7mi

DTT for last few miles, when NO fuel bars are showing, best estimated by using the minimum cell voltage measured by LeafSpy. Driving distances at 30-35mi/hr (5mi/kwh or better). Presumably if you are in the zero fuel bar range you are getting nervous about getting home and driving very conservatively.

3.53 V= 6mi
3.43 V 4
3.34 V 3
3.23 V 2
3.14 V 1
3.10 V 1/2

Voltage measured when stopped for more than 5 sec (i.e. pull off to side of road or at stop sign/light).

This is much simpler in use than the description above indicates. This formula (SOC-4) will give you an estimated DTT of 22miles from LBW (which occurs at 26% SOC) and 12 miles DTT from VLBW (16% SOC), under conditions listed above.

I put the above information on a large index card that I put in the glove box, in large letters, so that I can easily refer to it while traveling.

 

[Maxstang]

Glad I found this thread! Lots of good info. Here's my first report from Leaf Spy Lite. Seems to jibe with other owners. My car is a 2014, however. I haven't done a full range test, but the day I picked up the car I drove it more than 75 miles and it had 20% indicated left on the battery. I'll do a turtle run in the near future and post back.