2013 MY Leaf - hybrid heater & EPA mileage rating questions

[jfon101231]

I did some searching and didn't find these answers, so if they are out there I apologize in advance.

1) Is there a date when Nissan is expected to release the official EPA mileage ratings for all trims?
2a) What is the expected impact to (cold-weather driving) mileage/range due to the hybrid heater system in SL/SV?
2b) Is there a "sweet spot" temp range where this new heater would only really help out in temps between say 30-50*F and below 30*F it doesn't help, or would it help at all temps under 70*F for example?

I have a 76 mile round trip commute (about 45% 70mph highway, 45% 55 mph state routes and rest mixed), and the ability to L2 charge at work. I currently have a standard plug 240v outlet in the garage I use for an electric heater (and future use of welder etc.), but would prefer to charge mostly at work for economical reasons. I live in CT, which often sees winter temps in the 10-40*F range. I have a 2nd car (RWD) that I use mostly in warmer weather so the Leaf would be more the rainy day and winter weather car (from Nov-Mar). I'm trying to figure whether an S with the charger upgrade would be better, or stepping up to the SV in order to get the faster charger included (but no QC) and to also get the hybrid heater. Going to the SV would also give the following:
- Lack of QC port on standard SV compared to S plus the charger option doesn't impact me as there are none here in New England anyway, and we have my wife's ICE car to use for road trips
- aluminum rims, which should help range slightly compared to the steel on the S but no idea how much, hopefully EPA rating will shed some light
- cruise control - not a deal breaker, but an annoyance as I do use it every day
- B mode for more regen - probably not something that will effect me much as most driving is flat and not too many traffic lights
- better stereo/pandora link/bigger display/Nav/Carwings - probably could live without since this will mostly just be a commuting car for myself 5 days a week, but many of these will come in handy if it gets used on the weekend as my wife/daugther love Pandora (think lots of Justin Bieber), to relieve some potential range anxiety by pre-heating in winter and having charging stations easily searchable.

Do wish the SV had the LED headlights, but no way its worth the cost. The MSRP for an SV is about $1720 more than an S plus the charger option, and trying to determine if its worth it to upgrade... I plan to lease (so I can easily upgrade to a new model in 2-3 yrs), so resale value isn't really a consideration.

Any comments/thoughts/suggestions welcome!
Thanks, Jeff

 

[Shaka]

Since you are leasing, the rate different between the S and SV models are probably not going to be THAT much and the benefits that the SV will bring should make you happy in the long run. Cruise control is not on the 2013 S model you say? That feature alone will add so much better economy especially based on the roads you travel. I cannot imagine not having cruise control in this type of car. Also the nice nav sytem with Carwings/etc is just really nice. And the ability to play things like Pandora, etc (our daughter also makes us suffer to Bieber-esque music, ugh!)...

If it were my money, SV-trim minimum. But again to each their own... oh and sorry but I cannot respond direct to your questions. However, I can touch down on mileage. Based on location, heater usage, etc -- you are unlikely to get 76-miles round-trip on a single charge. You are almost certainly going to have to charge (in the winter) at home overnight. You could probably charge to 80% at each location and be more than fine, but plan to charge at home in the winter months. Otherwise I speculate you won't make it all the way "back" to work on that round-trip if you only charge at work...

 

[jfon101231]

Thanks for your input. You make a good point - if the difference in MSRP is $1,720, I would only pay roughly 50% of that via my payments during the lease term, with the remainder sitting in the residual... I agree with you, seems like cruise control is an odd thing to leave off a car to be driven specifically for best mileage/range but it is.

Based on you pointing out that, I'm starting to lean towards the SV but still curious to hear the answers to the questions.

Since I'll be leasing and expect to get a newer EV at the end so I don't care about battery life, I was planning to charge to 100% at work, and then charge at home to whatever level I find I need (fine-tuning based on experience over a few weeks) in order to get back to work before hitting LBW so I have some cushion for unexpected traffic etc. but keeping my utility bill as low as possible. From what I have read and understand, I'm still better off charging at home using 240v for a shorter time than 120v since it is more efficient, so I'll have to dig a bit into what I'll need to do to use the EVSE upgrade @ $250 and portable (rather than spending $800-$1000 on a wall charger).

 

[Boomer23]

Just a couple of minor points, since nobody knows the answers to your biggest questions.

Re cruise control, good EV driving technique should give you better range than cruise control, unless you're prone to speeding and you need the cc to rein in your mad speeding. Controlling your own speed, you can avoid the cruise control's tendency to accelerate too much going uphill to maintain speed, and you can select a more gentle acceleration rate when speeding up on flat pavement.

Re B mode for stronger regen, this is not only important on downhill runs. If you drive in B mode, and if the 2013 LEAF actually delivers substantially stronger regen than the current model, you'll get an efficiency benefit in flat city and suburban driving as you approach intersections. This can reduce your use of friction braking, and some EVs with really strong regen can be driven with only very minor use of the brake pedal.

Congratulations on a good choice for the 2013 LEAF. With your ability to charge at work and at home, you'll surely be fine for range. One big issue on your choice of an S or SV, the S lacks Carwings, which allows you to wirelessly instruct the car to pre-warm or pre-cool the cabin while the car is connected to shore power. The SV will have Carwings. Pre-conditioning will add to your comfort and will reduce your need for the heater and A/C, thereby adding to your range.

 

[jfon101231]

Thanks! The CC on the highway is to be lazy, on the state routes it's to avoid a ticket (BT,DT) There are a few situations where the B mode would assist some then, i.e. where I'm getting to the interstate and the traffic lights, but otherwise be unaffected by normal highway driving. I'm assuming this would only be in the neighborhood of 1-2mi gained per trip, not 8-10, correct?

I did mention the Carwings (last dash). At home the car would be in the garage and at work the charging station is right next to the building, so neither are too far of a walk to pre-heat/cool say 15 mins before I leave if needed to save $800... I assume I can just walk outside and turn it on manually and get the same benefit if its still plugged in, correct? In other words, the only benefit to pre-heat/cool is that it is using energy from the plug rather than the car battery, and that there is nothing otherwise "special" about what its doing compared to normal heater usage when the car is turned on, but please correct me if that is incorrect.

 

[Boomer23]

Re B mode, it will help on the highway if you have a lot of stop and go situations, not much at all if you're cruising at a steady speed. Hard to say how many miles it'll add to range, but I'm guessing you're right about the lower estimate.

Sorry I missed your mention of Carwings in your OP. Yes, you can pre-condition by walking to the car, but many seem to find it convenient and more pleasant in extreme weather to do it wirelessly. At least you're aware of this so that you can assess your own preferences. Truth to tell, I've never actually pre-conditioned, since our climate is rarely extreme enough to need it and I don't do early mornings when it's cold.

 

[Shaka]

Sounds like you're definitely doing your homework, same as I was doing 6-8 weeks ago before my wife leased the 2012 LEAF we now have. Good luck with your adventures...

 

[jfon101231]

Yes, you can pre-condition by walking to the car, but many seem to find it convenient and more pleasant in extreme weather to do it wirelessly. At least you're aware of this so that you can assess your own preferences. Truth to tell, I've never actually pre-conditioned, since our climate is rarely extreme enough to need it and I don't do early mornings when it's cold.

My "thrifty" side is a little bigger than my laziness, so I'd probably be fine without it, so it may come down to what my wife wants if she drives on the w/e since she would certainly not want to go into that freezing garage twice :roll: To put it in perspective, I park my car outside at home/work now, and don't have a car starter (she does, as a gift from me, for those times she is parked outside when away from home). My guess is the wireless pre-conditioning is like DVR, which when I finally caved and got, I wondered how I existed before without it :lol: The key is to start low/without then you don't know what you're missing!

Assuming the $199 lease rate for the S (and ~$249 or whatever they come up with for the SV) aren't going higher any time soon, I may be able to wait a month or two and see what others are experiencing in real world scenario's w/ the new heater as that will probably be the biggest factor in which way I end up going it seems...

 

[TonyWilliams]

... I may be able to wait a month or two and see what others are experiencing in real world scenario's w/ the new heater as that will probably be the biggest factor in which way I end up going it seems...

You don't even remotely have a range issue or a heater issue if you can charge at both ends of a 76 mile round trip.

There's no reason to keep burning oil to figure out that the heat pump will save considerable energy over the 2011-2012 resistance heater. In other words, that piece of information shouldn't affect when you buy.

 

[jfon101231]

That isn't driving the "when", it is driving the "which" decision, as in trim level/options. The true "when" is a choice about whether I "want" it now, or waiting for necessity, i.e. an expensive breakdown or maintenance. Current vehicle is a 1998 Accord bought new and currently at 292k miles and running just fine as of today. I do just about all of my own maitenance, but it will need tires in several months, and a timing belt/water pump at about 310k or probably ~9 months. I am more inclined to wait until I get closer to either of those two big ticket items barring any big failure before that, as the value of the car as it sits is probably $1000, and likely unchanged much by another 15k miles or whether those items are handled. I could probably part it out and get $600 fairly easily.

While I know I can charge to 80% at both ends and be fine, the quandry is whether there is enough of a benefit to be gained by going with the SV to get the better heater (B-mode, aluminum rims, cruise control, and Nav/Carwings etc.) to enable charging less at home to offset/justify the upgrade cost. Put differently, with those items, for example could I make it round-trip by doing 100% charge at work and add 20% charge at home with the SV compared to 100% charge at work and add 40% charge at home with the S due to lower range. Maybe its just the finance/analysis geek in me!

 

[Shaka]

I'd suggest you work out worse-case scenarios, too. What if you get stuck behind an accident or unexpected traffic? What if freak weather means running the heat or A/C for your entire drive one day? All of these matters will and should weigh into ... but then, the "average" expected costs/scenarios should also be considered as the norm.

With all that being said, you should be able to drive either an S or SV trim, at 80% charge, the less than 40 miles each-way that your drive would require. You will need only to worry about tire rotations and brake fluid every 7500 miles (going by Nissan suggestions, although I'd suggest checking the tires far more frequent than that-- but sounds like you're hands-on and will do that anyhow).

In which case... the cost is really a matter of personal opinion I'd say. But as you already pointed out, for a 3-year lease, this is going to be a matter of what, $15-30 in that range after tax? For a dollar-a-day or LESS, you'll get a LOT of benefits from that higher trim level car. Even if they are non-efficiency related some of them, they'll be ones you can enjoy!! It is always easier for us to spend other people's money so I say DO IT hahah!!

 

[dgpcolorado]

Thanks! The CC on the highway is to be lazy, on the state routes it's to avoid a ticket (BT,DT) There are a few situations where the B mode would assist some then, i.e. where I'm getting to the interstate and the traffic lights, but otherwise be unaffected by normal highway driving. I'm assuming this would only be in the neighborhood of 1-2mi gained per trip, not 8-10, correct?

I did mention the Carwings (last dash). At home the car would be in the garage and at work the charging station is right next to the building, so neither are too far of a walk to pre-heat/cool say 15 mins before I leave if needed to save $800... I assume I can just walk outside and turn it on manually and get the same benefit if its still plugged in, correct? In other words, the only benefit to pre-heat/cool is that it is using energy from the plug rather than the car battery, and that there is nothing otherwise "special" about what its doing compared to normal heater usage when the car is turned on, but please correct me if that is incorrect.

To me having cruise control would probably be worth the extra payment cost for the SV over S, but that is something you can decide once you see what the lease deals are like.

As for preheating, be aware that you can program the LEAF to preheat with the two Climate Control timers, which work the same way as the two charging timers. So, if you know in advance when you are going to leave you can set the CC timer for that time, or a bit later if the car ends up being too warm. The 2011 and 2012 models work this way and I presume that the 2013 models will be the same. So, even without Carwings you can preheat without going outside and turning the car on.

And preheating/precooling will also work even when the car isn't plugged-in. The benefit there is comfort: getting into an already heated car in very cold weather is quite pleasant. Also, preheating means that the heater bottle is already warm so you can get instant additional heat for the cabin or defrosting as soon as you turn the car on and drive off. Otherwise it will take several minutes to warm up before you get useful heat. Cooling is much more rapid and takes much less energy, but getting into a precooled car that has been baking in the sun is nice, whether the car was plugged-in or not.

 

[Reddy]

2b) Is there a "sweet spot" temp range where this new heater would only really help out in temps between say 30-50*F and below 30*F it doesn't help, or would it help at all temps under 70*F for example?

I posted on another thread, but expand this jpeg and you should see a significant improvement between -10C and +20C:
http://sfbayleafs.org/news/2013/01/2013-nissan-leaf-product-highlights/attachment/13leafproduct4/

 

[jfon101231]

As for preheating, be aware that you can program the LEAF to preheat with the two Climate Control timers, which work the same way as the two charging timers. So, if you know in advance when you are going to leave you can set the CC timer for that time, or a bit later if the car ends up being too warm. The 2011 and 2012 models work this way and I presume that the 2013 models will be the same. So, even without Carwings you can preheat without going outside and turning the car on.

And preheating/precooling will also work even when the car isn't plugged-in.

Hmm, if that is the case on the S with the smaller screen (is that going to be synomous with limited programming?), that would certainly be a helpful stop-gap since I would know both times +/- 10 mins or so.

Is it correct that the range penalty for running the heater for 5 minutes as a pre-heater is the same as running for 5 minutes while driving, or no?

@Reddy - I appreciate pointing that out. So in F, that is a range of 14-68*F, which is where the vast majority of my driving would fall. The downside is that the graph has no y-axis or floor labels (I'd argue not an accident), so in a sense its useless to be able to understand how much that would affect real world range. As the saying goes, you can make a graph show whatever you want it to with little effort. Are these just "directionally accurate" graphs, or tied to real world data? At least the x-axis has a pretty good base, covering -4 to +104*F.

 

[Reddy]

Sorry, I can't help with the axis since that is how it comes from Nissan. Yup, probably not an accident and maybe they didn't want to show us all the data. Perhaps someone more closely connected to Nissan can get more data.

 

[dgpcolorado]

As for preheating, be aware that you can program the LEAF to preheat with the two Climate Control timers, which work the same way as the two charging timers. So, if you know in advance when you are going to leave you can set the CC timer for that time, or a bit later if the car ends up being too warm. The 2011 and 2012 models work this way and I presume that the 2013 models will be the same. So, even without Carwings you can preheat without going outside and turning the car on.

And preheating/precooling will also work even when the car isn't plugged-in.

Hmm, if that is the case on the S with the smaller screen (is that going to be synomous with limited programming?), that would certainly be a helpful stop-gap since I would know both times +/- 10 mins or so.

At this point we don't know if the charging timers and CC timers will work the same on the S as they do on the current SV and SL models. My guess is that they will, but if the center console is significantly changed, it is hard to say for sure. Someone with access to an S will need to take a close look.

Is it correct that the range penalty for running the heater for 5 minutes as a pre-heater is the same as running for 5 minutes while driving, or no? ...

When unplugged the answer is "yes", if you are driving in D; in Eco the car limits the heater output unless defrost is selected. Be aware that on the current LEAF models preheating and precooling is preset to 77ºF while you can set the a different temperature while driving. But, for "5 minutes"? It would be the same power used. In cold weather however, five minutes won't heat the car up much; ten or fifteen minutes would be better. In very cold weather you might need a half hour to melt ice on the windshield.

When plugged-in the answer is "it's complicated":

When plugged-in, if the power needed to heat the car exceeds what the EVSE can supply the rest will come out of the battery pack. As the heater is dialed back by the system, the battery pack will then start getting charged again. So, how much, if any, charge comes out of the battery pack depends on 1) how cold the car is, 2) how long the preheating continues, and 3) What level one is charging at [Level 1 (1.1 kW), Level 2 (3.3 kW), or Level 2 (6 kW)].

Also, you can set the car to "climate control priority" or "charge priority". With the former setting the CC system will turn on whenever the timer tells it to. With the latter setting the CC system won't come on until the car reaches 80% (according to the manual, I don't use it).

Complications aside, the CC timer works really well but if you use it for a short time while plugged-in you will lose a bit of charge in the battery, albeit less than if you use the CC system unplugged or while driving.

Hope that's reasonably clear. The reason it is so complicated is that Nissan was trying to optimize several things at once to reduce the hit from the heater to range. With the heat pump, which the S won't have, it may well be that the car won't lose charge while preheating at Level 2. Some of this stuff we just won't know until somebody tries it.

 

[ydnas7]

@Reddy - I appreciate pointing that out. So in F, that is a range of 14-68*F, which is where the vast majority of my driving would fall. The downside is that the graph has no y-axis or floor labels (I'd argue not an accident), so in a sense its useless to be able to understand how much that would affect real world range. As the saying goes, you can make a graph show whatever you want it to with little effort. Are these just "directionally accurate" graphs, or tied to real world data? At least the x-axis has a pretty good base, covering -4 to +104*F.

The Y axis is not really needed, what is needed (and provided) is the non heat exchange equivalent. (ie current vs next leaf)

roughly speaking, range equivalent to prior leaf's sweet spot is now extended down to 0C (gray line)
range equivalent to slight reduction only is now extended from 10C to now -10C (blue line)
range at -20C is just as bad as before, AC cooling is similar to before.

 

[Den]

On my MY2012 with Nordic package, heating consumption with 18-20C (65-68F) inside temperature setting, in ECO mode (it is good mode for winter because of icy roads) is:

-3C (26F) like today: 1 - 1,5kW
-10C (14F) : about 2kW
-20C (-4F) : about 3kW

Do you think it can be really any better on MY2013 ?

How much A/C uses on summer? I guess it should use about same 1 - 1,5kW.

 

[jfon101231]

The Y axis is not really needed, what is needed (and provided) is the non heat exchange equivalent. (ie current vs next leaf)

I agree that is a helpful analysis, in lieu of something more concrete. However, I'd prefer hard data for a MY13 similar to what Den reported on an MY12 to see since without knowing the precision of that graph there is still some opportunity for "telling the story" they want...

 

[dm33]

@Reddy - I appreciate pointing that out. So in F, that is a range of 14-68*F, which is where the vast majority of my driving would fall. The downside is that the graph has no y-axis or floor labels (I'd argue not an accident), so in a sense its useless to be able to understand how much that would affect real world range. As the saying goes, you can make a graph show whatever you want it to with little effort. Are these just "directionally accurate" graphs, or tied to real world data? At least the x-axis has a pretty good base, covering -4 to +104*F.

The Y axis is not really needed, what is needed (and provided) is the non heat exchange equivalent. (ie current vs next leaf)

roughly speaking, range equivalent to prior leaf's sweet spot is now extended down to 0C (gray line)
range equivalent to slight reduction only is now extended from 10C to now -10C (blue line)
range at -20C is just as bad as before, AC cooling is similar to before.

Where did this chart come from?

Is there any updated, newer information regarding the range improvement on the hybrid heater? Is there another thread that better discusses it. This is the thread Google found.

I'm debating between a S w charger package and SV with charger package to get the quick charger in both. Its a 3k+ difference. We've been able to convince ourselves we don't need most of the additions in the SV, we're pretty much down to the hybrid heater. We could still go either way, not at all.