2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

[cwerdna]

Not sure if there already is a thread for this as I searched around and couldn't find one.

Please merge if there is one already.

I think this is a first. We already have a report of a 30 kWh (2016) Leaf w/a capacity bar gone. Came across it at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1401599269910910/. The guy's at 14.4K miles and his location is listed as Orlando, FL.

Report capacity losses, esp. capacity bar losses on 2016 to 2017 30 kWh packs here.

 

[lkkms2]

Don't have face book account. Besides milage (14k), any AHr reading? Or explanation of their Charging patterns? Understand it would be higher ambient temperatures in Florida

 

[cwerdna]

Don't have face book account. Besides milage (14k), any AHr reading? Or explanation of their Charging patterns? Understand it would be higher ambient temperatures in Florida

Sign up for one. You can lurk and don't need to post anything or share any info.

No, there's almost no info.

edit: He's provided attached Leaf Spy screenshots. I can see in one of them:
AHr: 63.91
SOH: 80%
Hx: 76.47%

His voltage delta at full/nearly full charge looks fine at 16 mV. It'll be interesting to see if it gets MUCH worse on a partly discharged battery or to see what it looks like if at min cell voltage of 3.712 volts or lower. I don't know the CVLI test details other than me briefly looking at the pointer from http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=383401#p383401.

 

[JTim]

Not sure if there already is a thread for this as I searched around and couldn't find one.

Please merge if there is one already.

I think this is a first. We already have a report of a 30 kWh (2016) Leaf w/a capacity bar gone. Came across it at https://www.facebook.com/groups/nissan.leaf.owners.group/permalink/1401599269910910/. The guy's at 14.4K miles and his location is listed as Orlando, FL.

Report capacity losses, esp. capacity bar losses on 2016 to 2017 30 kWh packs here.

Cross-posted to: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=20924&p=488611#p488611

First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).

 

[jhm614]

First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).

Wow! I wonder if your battery is an outlier? Either way, you are well on your way to being a 30kWh warranty replacement. Depending on the temps this year, you could lose your 2nd bar by fall. What's your range like now?

 

[JTim]

First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).

Wow! I wonder if your battery is an outlier? Either way, you are well on your way to being a 30kWh warranty replacement. Depending on the temps this year, you could lose your 2nd bar by fall. What's your range like now?

GOM went from 110 mile range to high 101 miles but that's the GOM.

I keep track of charges, and for the most part it has been about once every 6-7 days with my driving style and terrain. For each charge I reset my Average kWh and my B-trip meter (rather than resetting those every time I start the car as some people do). (I also keep track of what percentage to what percentage my charges are, and on average they go from 20% to 80% over the last year and three months.) So over those 6-7 days my B-trip meter says I go from low 70 miles per charge to high 90 miles per charge with an average around 60-70 miles per charge most of the time. I seem to be getting 4.5 to 5.0 average kWh lately to get those 90 miles per charge.

So it will be interesting to see how much more often I charge now (perhaps it will be closer to once every 5-6 days now? ) how many miles less I might go for those charges (perhaps closer to 60 to 70 miles per charge?).

Is it my imagination? If I remember the battery wiki, the 2011-2012 cars also tended to average 13-15 months before the first battery capacity bar disappeared? Yet there are 2013s on the forum that have gone much longer than I have?

 

[mihird]

I am at 21,000 miles on my 30Kwh 2016 SV purchased in Dec. 2015. so far no apparent range loss or loss of capacity bar. 95% of my charging happens on home installed Level 2 - very occasional use of DCFC. I am in CA - San Francisco area...used for 86 mile daily round trip commute..so far, no issues even through winter months.

My car gets charged to 100% 5 days of the week.

 

[JTim]

First battery capacity bar gone, 3/17/17

Manufacture date from inside car door is 10/15 *NOT* 2016 as I originally posted

ODO 6,084
AHr=64.97
SOH=81%
Hx=79.63
10 QC / 139 L1/L2

Charging habits: mostly from 20% to 80%, a few to 100%, from memory, 2 QCs in 97-degree temperatures, one or three times car sat more than 4 hours at 100% charge in the heat, and maybe twice (from memory) at 95% charge more than 12 hours (in a garage -- those times I misjudged thinking it would be a busy day, so fully charged ran short errands, car got to 95% at about 3pm, then sat that way until the next morning).

Wow! I wonder if your battery is an outlier? Either way, you are well on your way to being a 30kWh warranty replacement. Depending on the temps this year, you could lose your 2nd bar by fall. What's your range like now?

GOM went from 110 mile range to high 101 miles but that's the GOM.

I keep track of charges, and for the most part it has been about once every 6-7 days with my driving style and terrain. For each charge I reset my Average kWh and my B-trip meter (rather than resetting those every time I start the car as some people do). (I also keep track of what percentage to what percentage my charges are, and on average they go from 20% to 80% over the last year and three months.) So over those 6-7 days my B-trip meter says I go from low 70 miles per charge to high 90 miles per charge with an average around 60-70 miles per charge most of the time. I seem to be getting 4.5 to 5.0 average kWh lately to get those 90 miles per charge.

So it will be interesting to see how much more often I charge now (perhaps it will be closer to once every 5-6 days now? ) how many miles less I might go for those charges (perhaps closer to 60 to 70 miles per charge?).

Is it my imagination? If I remember the battery wiki, the 2011-2012 cars also tended to average 13-15 months before the first battery capacity bar disappeared? Yet there are 2013s on the forum that have gone much longer than I have?

3/19/17

"Put the candle BACK!"

This morning the 12th battery capacity bar was back.

I'm positive I counted correctly on the 17th of March, and there were 11 bars. This may have been a false alarm, or the hot weather, or it is on the verge of disappearing.

SOC=82%
Ahr=53.52
GIDS=256
Hx=79.82%
12 V battery=12.56V

JTim

 

[jbuntz]

Is that firs number SOH not SOC?

If I remember right the 24kWh cars lose a bar at 53-55Ah. Also your Ahr seems really low compared to new over 80 and mine at 72

Maybe the bar software is using the same triggers as the 24kWh battery.

If that is true then we don't get a new battery until it is close to 50%??

 

[JTim]

Wow! I wonder if your battery is an outlier? Either way, you are well on your way to being a 30kWh warranty replacement. Depending on the temps this year, you could lose your 2nd bar by fall. What's your range like now?

GOM went from 110 mile range to high 101 miles but that's the GOM.

I keep track of charges, and for the most part it has been about once every 6-7 days with my driving style and terrain. For each charge I reset my Average kWh and my B-trip meter (rather than resetting those every time I start the car as some people do). (I also keep track of what percentage to what percentage my charges are, and on average they go from 20% to 80% over the last year and three months.) So over those 6-7 days my B-trip meter says I go from low 70 miles per charge to high 90 miles per charge with an average around 60-70 miles per charge most of the time. I seem to be getting 4.5 to 5.0 average kWh lately to get those 90 miles per charge.

So it will be interesting to see how much more often I charge now (perhaps it will be closer to once every 5-6 days now? ) how many miles less I might go for those charges (perhaps closer to 60 to 70 miles per charge?).

Is it my imagination? If I remember the battery wiki, the 2011-2012 cars also tended to average 13-15 months before the first battery capacity bar disappeared? Yet there are 2013s on the forum that have gone much longer than I have?

3/19/17

"Put the candle BACK!"

This morning the 12th battery capacity bar was back.

I'm positive I counted correctly on the 17th of March, and there were 11 bars. This may have been a false alarm, or the hot weather, or it is on the verge of disappearing.

SOC=82%
Ahr=53.52
GIDS=256
Hx=79.82%
12 V battery=12.56V

JTim

Counted 11 battery capacity bars this morning 3/22/17.

ODO 6,157
AHr=65.42
Hx=80.04
SOH=82%

Tim

 

[Stanton]

Counted 11 battery capacity bars this morning 3/22/17.

ODO 6,157
AHr=65.42
Hx=80.04
SOH=82%

Tim

So after ~18 months, it's almost like you have a "new" 24 kWHr battery pack??

 

[JTim]

Counted 11 battery capacity bars this morning 3/22/17.

ODO 6,157
AHr=65.42
Hx=80.04
SOH=82%

Tim

So after ~18 months, it's almost like you have a "new" 24 kWHr battery pack??

Took delivery 12/15/15, so 12/15/16 was 1 year-ish -- could be closer to 14 or 15 months?

Tim

 

[SD303]

Hello all, so this week I noticed my battery changed in my 2016 SV. My capacity decreased as I only have 11/12 capacity bars. It takes longer to charge and range is diminished. I wanted to know if this was normal given I have 4k miles on it and live in a temperate climate. I started leasing the car beginning of Aug. 16. I live in San Diego. I routinely charge it to 80% daily with a normal discharge to 50%. I never charge it above this percentage range. I have about a 30 mile roundtrip commute in heavy traffic. Is this abnormal battery aging? Perhaps battery cell failure? Is because the cells have not "balanced out " due to my mid-range charging? I can't add a pic I charged to full to help "balance out" the cells. That was obviously not successful. I have my first scheduled maintenance coming up. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[cwerdna]

Ouch!

Can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it.

Doesn't seem like these 30 kWh are holding up that well in high temps.

Mods: Can someone merge this post into http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606?

 

[GerryAZ]

I have not driven a 2016 with the larger battery, but my 2011 was over 1 year old before losing the first capacity bar (also over 12,000 miles). My 2015 was almost 2 years old with 30,000 miles when the first bar disappeared. Since you live in a cooler climate, your battery should last longer so I suggest you complain to Nissan. There have been several reports in other threads on the forum of premature drop in capacity on 2016s.

 

[LeftieBiker]

If you really never, ever charge to 100%, then the first thing I'd try is a few 100% charges - just drive the car soon after it's finished charging. It's hard to believe that a lack of full equalization charging would cause a capacity bar to drop, but that's the easiest thing to try.

 

[EVDrive]

Dang, sorry to hear about this. I would be at the dealer right away complaining up a storm. You should not have lost a capacity bar, I'd guess either the instrumentation is off (try some full charges as Leftie Biker recommended) or you have some cell issues. It took me 46,000 miles and 3 years to lose one capacity bar on my 2011 Leaf and I fully charged to 100% 2x a day most weekdays and I DC quick charged several times most weeks. I was hard on my battery.

I'm in the SF bay so you might have to worry more about fully charging and leaving it charged as it's hotter where you are, however, I never worried about fully charging my Leaf. I drove it the next morning or a few hours later after each 100% charge. I'm so glad I didn't baby my battery and just drove the car. Reading the forums, it seems that so many people who babied their batteries had premature degradation and all their overcaution was for not. When I get a 200 mile EV, I'll charge to 80% most of the time.

With these first generation EV's, I would recommend to everyone not to worry so much, drive the thing and upgrade later to a bigger battery EV with battery liquid cooling. I think it most important to not leave your car fully charged for days or frequently plug in to charge from 90 to 100% and to avoid fully discharging the battery.

Curious to hear the dealer explanation for this sadness. I wonder if they will reset the bars to 12 and tell you it's fine as that's what I read on this forum they did with the older Leafs when they lost bars too quickly.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Its not normal. What is the build date? you picked it up in August? yeah, about the WORST time of year to buy an EV. Too late now but if buying in August, I would not consider a car that had a build date beyond July. I would actually petition for a car built in August to be honest with you.

I got mine in Nov. I cheated. I moved my lease date up because I knew that any S30 I got was less than a month off the factory floor. I am just under 9,000 miles now and my battery stats via LEAF Spy are the same as the day I got the car. I have about 70-80 QCs, have heated my pack over 122º F, etc.... IOW, I am trashing it to no avail, the pack has not faltered yet.

 

[johnlocke]

Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Charging the battery to 100% is not the problem here. First off, charging the battery to 100% actually only charges it to about 92% of full capacity. Nissan only allows the voltage in the cell to rise to 4.11v. A fully charged cell would register between 4.17and 4.20. I have over 25000 miles on my car and it gets a full charge every evening (over 400 L2 charges so far plus several dozen L3 charges). I live in San Diego east county. Summer temps here are similar to east L.A. or Las Vegas. I still have all 12 bars (although probably not for much longer) SOH is 85%.

Could you tell us your amp hour reading and SOH? If you don't have Leafspy PM me and I'll plug mine in to your car. Since we are both in San Diego it should be easy to arrange a meet. There are reports that the first bar doesn't drop until you hit an SOH of 80% That would be important for us to know since the 24KWH leafs drop the first bar at 85%. If Nissan is playing games here with the loss of bars ( and therefore with the warranty) we need to document it.

your statement is a litany of contradictions. You say charging to 100% is not the problem but your car only charges to 92% which means significant degradation. IT SHOULD BE CHARGING TO 97%. Also thinking (again as usual) you have one of the first 30 kwh packs and the later ones will prove to be much more durable...

Either way, getting a database going with LEAF Spy readings on when these bars are disappearing is vital. If a warranty is not going to happen until the pain level hits 10, we all want to know. Previously it was assumed the percentages would be the same meaning that a 30 kwh pack would see replacement at a level only slightly below the range of a new 24 kwh pack.

If replacement is not going to happen until the pack reaches a range near the replacement level of the 24 kwh pack, this would be a HUGE game changer. With the 100,000 mile warranty, one could be suffering for years waiting for that last bar to disappear!