50% Success. What's So Tough About Charging on the Road?

[kieranmullen]

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?

Who are you that free services be perfect?

Tesla units have also experienced crowding as well.

It's unacceptable that these have so many issues, moreover that they can take forever to be repaired. The "technology" really isn't or shouldn't be that difficult.

There are several threads on this issue, and I hope Nissan is paying attention. And even if individual units were more reliable (say up-time in the 4 or 5 "9" range), there'd still be large problems looming ahead, what with splintered networks, insufficient #s, exorbitant fees, and on and on. To my knowledge, Tesla has none of these problems (save for some popular locations, resulting in wait times), and should thus deservedly eat EVery other player's lunch, as it were.

 

[johnrhansen]

Very little problem with quick chargers up here, when I need them. Driving an electric car more than 40 miles from home requires lots of planning. Especially if you don't have a smart phone! Always have a backup plan, don't wait until it's nearly dead to charge. It can be done, but its kind of a pain. We are in a tough period. Chargers are needed more often, but are by no means ubiquitous like gas pumps are. Hopefully we can get past this and enough people go electric so there will be so many chargers we won't need to plan anymore.

 

[Zythryn]

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?

Who are you that free services be perfect?

Tesla units have also experienced crowding as well.

I don't think chargers being free is, in and of itself, an issue.
The issue is the problems that happen if you have too much demand and not enough supply.

Chargers need to have redundancy. One way to do this is to have multiple chargers at each location.
And while 'standardization' may be a funny thing to hear from a Tesla proponent, I would argue Tesla has a more standardized system than the CHAdeMO chargers.

The cost, contact number, availability, and mapping of every Tesla supercharger is the same.
Every one is built into the onboard Nav.
Every one is free for supercharger equipped cars.
Every one is available 24/7 (99% sure of this).
Every one has the same contact information which is printed right on the charger stations.

Yes, any system will have bottlenecks, hopefully short lived ones. No system is perfect. A system with multiple companies maintaining it, with poor communication, with various availability and costs... Well, it just seems unwieldy.

 

[mbender]

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?

Who are you that free services be perfect?

Tesla units have also experienced crowding as well.

What Zythryn said above, plus: 1.) Who said anything about perfection? 2.) Who said only the free ones have problems? 3.) I mostly mean unacceptable for the budding EV industry and Nissan and others' good names (though yes, also for those who pay for quick-charging ability and end up experiencing frustration, uncertainty and limitations).

And note that even if all quick-chargers were free, there'd still be good grounds to call poor service unacceptable if the car makers wanted the industry to grow. Imagine if any number of free internet services had been as unreliable in their early stages. Do you think they would have grown as much or as quickly as they did? And again, Chademo is not free -- neither the port on the vehicle, nor (soon) any charger -- which makes it all the more unacceptable.

So I stand by my opinion and assertion: they (manufacturers, networks, electricians, strategists/planners) need to get their act together, and SOON, or the complaints will become louder, amplified by the media, and heard by many otherwise-convinced customers.

 

[johnrhansen]

I second the above. Whether a charger is free or not, it needs to be reliable. If I plan to go out to it and it is inoperative, it is a waste of my time at best, and I'm stranded at worst. I have no problem paying up to 5 bucks for a quick charge or 2 for a level 2, but my frugal side always steers towards the free ones. Thanks to people who provide chargers for free, but honestly, if they can't be reliable and free at the same time, then start charging for it's use and make them reliable, or take them offline.

 

[Rat]

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?
Who are you that free services be perfect?

It's unacceptable that these have so many issues,

kieranmullen, your questions are insulting and ill-founded. The "free" service isn't close to free and you know it. I originally ordered the 2011 SV Leaf, assuming I would charge overnight using L1. When the EV Project came to the Bay Area Nissan called me up and urged me to upgrade to an SL for an extra $1500 or so ($500 of which was picked up by the EVP). I questioned them rigorously about whether there would be L3 chargers installed and they assured me that a whole network was in the process of being installed and would be available, and for a time, free. They also told me that I could have the Blink L2 EVSE installed in my home at no cost, i.e. subsidized by the EVP. Of course, they also promoted the extra feedom the SL would provide with its extended range. I also chcked with the EVP itself (ECOtality) who exmained my house floorplan and assured me that the installation of the EVSE would be wholly covered by the $1200 subsidy. Based on these assurances, I upgraded, got the SL and had the EVSE installed. The installation turned out to cost over $3000. So altogether the upgrade to SL and installation cost me out of pocket around $3000.

So at least now I can drive around and charge on L3 (free or not), right? Wrong! About 75% of the time that I have tried to do so, with working L3 chargers, mind you, not ones out of service, I have not been able to succeed. The nozzles just don't communicate with the car, the machines never read my BLINK card, or when I use the code given to me by the BLINK rep the touch screen won't read my touches correctly, either treating as double taps or no taps, so I have to start all over) and on those rare occasions when I have been able to get the machine to work (after spending 45 minutes with a BLINK service person on the phone who gives me a new code but makes me jump through all kinds of hoops), the actual charge cuts out short of the full charge I needed and selected. In short, in the 3+ years I've had the Leaf, I have used the QC chargers successfully maybe 3 times, so they've cost me about $1000 per charge. The last time I tried, I spent 45 minutes trying to use one QC (both sides), failed, and gave up after 45 minutes, then switched to the adjacent L2. I went from 5 or 6 miles on the GOM to about 17 or 18 in another half hour, which was just enough to get home. So it took me over 70 minutes + $6 to get 10 miles of charge on my car.

So yes, we have a right to be pissed about the useless QC chargers out there that we paid good money to use and can't. Now I just never try. It's not worth the aggravation and worry that I'm going to be stranded. I treat my SL as the SV I originally intended to order and just always use my ICE car if I have to go more than 60 mi. R/T.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Another issue that is relevant related to the original CHAdeMO (version 0.9) QCs is the confusing design of the plug with its lever in addition to its release button. The new version 1.0 removes the lever leaving only a button which should be easier to use and less likely to cause the plug to be damaged because a user has difficulty removing the plug. This may have been discussed at length elsewhere, but could anyone comment on whether the new plug design (the new 1.0 version may require extensive other changes) seems to be in common use yet?

The lever is not part of the version 0.9 or 1.0 design. A locking plug that can't be removed by "human force" is the standard.

Yazaki's first design was the two lever one (it was really, really bad), then the single lever one.

Again, none of the lever issues were CHAdeMO specifications.

 

[kieranmullen]

Mostly mean? Either you do or you don't.

How can something that is free not acceptable. It just doesn't make sense. If you don't find it "acceptable" to you then dont use it and move out of the way for someone else.

We do live in a world where everyone feels entitled. I suppose it is just par for the course.

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?

Who are you that free services be perfect?

Tesla units have also experienced crowding as well.

What Zythryn said above, plus: 1.) Who said anything about perfection? 2.) Who said only the free ones have problems? 3.) I mostly mean unacceptable for the budding EV industry and Nissan and others' good names (though yes, also for those who pay for quick-charging ability and end up experiencing frustration, uncertainty and limitations).

And note that even if all quick-chargers were free, there'd still be good grounds to call poor service unacceptable if the car makers wanted the industry to grow. Imagine if any number of free internet services had been as unreliable in their early stages. Do you think they would have grown as much or as quickly as they did? And again, Chademo is not free -- neither the port on the vehicle, nor (soon) any charger -- which makes it all the more unacceptable.

So I stand by my opinion and assertion: they (manufacturers, networks, electricians, strategists/planners) need to get their act together, and SOON, or the complaints will become louder, amplified by the media, and heard by many otherwise-convinced customers.

 

[kieranmullen]

If you are that easily upset about a non personal questions on a mostly anonymous public (Except for me I have no qualms about using my name) Internet forum, you should get off now. This is just ridiculous honestly Perhaps your area just doesn't have enough of the right infrastructure provided by companies not affiliated with Nissan. Perhaps your purchase might now have been the best idea given the state of your current local infrastructure. To blame Nissan for your decisions on the faults of a 3rd party company is just silly.

Did people get upset at the BluRay association when the local Blockbuster/Movie Store went out of business or didn't have the title is.

The fact is that the charging business is expensive and would not exist without heavy government subsidies. If they were making big bucks there would be more competition in that arena, but there isn't. Things take awhile to get fixed. Now if I go on a 200+ trip and a charger is out of order (Which I take a gamble on some of the Aeroviroment Network locations) I place that company any fault.

Why is it unacceptable if it is a free service?
Who are you that free services be perfect?

It's unacceptable that these have so many issues,

kieranmullen, your questions are insulting and ill-founded. The "free" service isn't close to free and you know it.

blah...

So yes, we have a right to be pissed about the useless QC chargers out there that we paid good money to use and can't. Now I just never try. It's not worth the aggravation and worry that I'm going to be stranded. I treat my SL as the SV I originally intended to order and just always use my ICE car if I have to go more than 60 mi. R/T.

 

[mbender]

Mostly mean? Either you do or you don't.

I'm sorry, I assumed more "facts" than were in evidence and didn't realize that I had to s-p-e-l-l i-t o-u-t:

It's 100% unacceptable. Mostly (to me) for non-personal or financial reasons, having to do with wanting the industry to be professional, well-received, and grow. And less so (to me) for personal and financial reasons having to do with not receiving a service that was promised and paid for (as well-described by Rat above). Got it? It's really not that difficult.

I'd say it's more than 100% unacceptable, but you might nit-pick on that, too.

 

[mbender]

Things take awhile to get fixed.

What's unacceptable is how long "awhile" is in an industry that presumably wants to grow.
What's unacceptable is that they aren't more reliable in the first place, OR,
if that's just unavoidable (ridiculous), that there aren't more plugs per location.

Now if I go on a 200+ trip and a charger is out of order (Which I take a gamble on some of the Aeroviroment Network locations) I place that company any fault.

I assume you mean "I place that company at fault", which I would translate to mean 100% at fault, or do you mean only partially at fault? And in my book, "at fault", "unacceptable"? Six of one...

For a new industry that wants to grow and have satisfied customers, what percent up-time and what repair turnaround times are acceptable?

 

[johnrhansen]

"Either you do or you don't". More examples of black and white thinking. I get so annoyed by that. The only thing in life that is exact like that is arithmetic. I know it is comforting to live in a black and white world, but personally, I'd rather be uncomfortable than to be lying to myself all the time.

 

[peter]

Ok here's my pet peeve -

I see a lot of entries on PlugShare of people whining about how they came to this or that charger and got stranded because it was broken and how this ruined their whole day. But clearly the charger has been offline for months with many, many failed charge entries. So these people obviously know about PlugShare, but don't bother to check the charger's status beforehand? And then they take the time afterwards to bitch about it? Can't quite figure that one out.

Frankly, I've had very few issues with QC's that were marked as good on PlugShare after many QC's including longish 300mi trips.

Yes it would be nice if every charger was 100% reliable, but until then - Plugshare is your friend.

 

[johnrhansen]

Ok here's my pet peeve -

I see a lot of entries on PlugShare of people whining about how they came to this or that charger and got stranded because it was broken and how this ruined their whole day. But clearly the charger has been offline for months with many, many failed charge entries. So these people obviously know about PlugShare, but don't bother to check the charger's status beforehand? And then they take the time afterwards to bitch about it? Can't quite figure that one out.

Frankly, I've had very few issues with QC's that were marked as good on PlugShare after many QC's including longish 300mi trips.

Yes it would be nice if every charger was 100% reliable, but until then - Plugshare is your friend.

Not always kept up to date though. I had an instance where a AV charger was listed as bad on plugshare, but showed available. I called av and they said it worked so I went that way, and indeed it did.

 

[kieranmullen]

As in most things people tend to report the bad under report the good.

Had that happen as well. I went all the way out to the coast hoping the charger would work.. luckily it did. I think most of the time people just cant figure out the chademo plug.

Ok here's my pet peeve -

I see a lot of entries on PlugShare of people whining about how they came to this or that charger and got stranded because it was broken and how this ruined their whole day. But clearly the charger has been offline for months with many, many failed charge entries. So these people obviously know about PlugShare, but don't bother to check the charger's status beforehand? And then they take the time afterwards to bitch about it? Can't quite figure that one out.

Frankly, I've had very few issues with QC's that were marked as good on PlugShare after many QC's including longish 300mi trips.

Yes it would be nice if every charger was 100% reliable, but until then - Plugshare is your friend.

Not always kept up to date though. I had an instance where a AV charger was listed as bad on plugshare, but showed available. I called av and they said it worked so I went that way, and indeed it did.

 

[mbender]

Ok here's my pet peeve -

[...]

Yes it would be nice if every charger was 100% reliable, but until then - Plugshare is your friend.

Not always kept up to date though. I had an instance where a AV charger was listed as bad on plugshare, but showed available. I called av and they said it worked so I went that way, and indeed it did.

Agreed. In my post "2 out of 2 quick-chargers down, 75-mile tow home (posted a day before this was started), plugshare was right and up-to-date on only one of the two. The error in my case, however, was that it "showed" up, but was down.

So I'd also say that plugshare is not always your friend. More like a frenemy, LOL.

No, hopefully an app will be developed with the multiple (4 and counting :-\ ) charging networks' blessing and support, that gives you real-time status of every machine out there. That's how it "should be", and though I'm not sure, suspect it is for Tesla (drivers) and their superchargers. I'm not holding my breath in the "Chademo case" though, because as we've already seen in the No-Charge-to-Charge program, there is some friction if not animosity between the various providers (ChargePoint and EVGo on this one).

As maligned as they can be, there are still pluses to "monopolies" and/or full vertical integration, and this may be one of those cases. Who wants to carry around four RFID cards, let alone pay for four memberships, each of which you will utilize only 25% on average? Add non-cooperation at the executive level to the machine problems (common to all networks) enumerated above, and you've got a recipe for disaster.

 

[desiv]

This is only slightly related to this topic, but I didn't find a more specific one with a quick search, and don't want to start a new one..

But I just got my Leaf a bit ago, and these charging networks are hit/miss, and I don't mean if the chargers are working..

I mean getting a card...

I've been waiting almost a month (in 4 days) for a Blink card. Nothing yet, no replies to my e-mails.
Yes, I was able to use the Blink app, but the one spot I used it (during a training for work so it was close by and I figured it would be a good test), it was in a spot my phone had terrible coverage.
So I had to walk WAY away from the car to get a signal to start the charge, and then hurry back when it took it so I could make it back to the charger in time to start the charge.
A card would be SO much nicer..

I just ordered my semacharge card last week or so, and got that today, but can't activate it because I apparently need a "Verification number" which I don't see anywhere and isn't listed as required in the instructions.
I went to their support submission page, and they don't even have a category for something like this (and no category for OTHER). I picked "billing problem" which is I suppose the closest...
Waiting to hear back..

Nothing major (and Aeronvironment and Chargepoint were smooth.. OpConnect too, although I haven't had the chance to try my OpCOnnecct card yet..), but just silly things that are frustrating for a new owner.

Not to mention the fact that I need all these accounts..
I heard about EZcharge, and thought it was a great solution, but then Chagepoint pulls out and I can't even use it because it's only available to new Nissan owners???
What's the point in that?
I totally understand NCTC being only for new Nissan owners, but the EZCharge consolidated card should be available to everyone....

Ok, that's me ranting for the day..
I hope you didn't waste too much time reading this.. ;-)

desiv

 

[kubel]

Nissan's corporate CHAdeMO charger at their Technical Center here in Michigan is down and has been down for the past several months. Does anyone really think Tesla would let that happen to one of their Superchargers? Nope.

 

[TomT]

I have become more and more convinced as time has past, that the Leaf is not really a big priority for Nissan in their overall scheme of things... EVs are not a big priory for any manufacturer in fact, except for Tesla.

Nissan's corporate CHAdeMO charger at their Technical Center here in Michigan is down and has been down for the past several months. Does anyone really think Tesla would let that happen to one of their Superchargers? Nope.

 

[mbender]

Nissan's corporate CHAdeMO charger at their Technical Center here in Michigan is down and has been down for the past several months. Does anyone really think Tesla would let that happen to one of their Superchargers? Nope.

I have become more and more convinced as time has past [passed, -Ed ], that the Leaf is not really a big priority for Nissan in their overall scheme of things... EVs are not a big priory for any manufacturer in fact, except for Tesla.

It's sad, but I'm beginning to agree. As for the Chademo being down for months, that's bad enough anywhere, but at their technical center?! That speaks volumes. I doubt Tesla would let a Supercharger unit be down (anywhere) for even weeks.

I've still got my fingers crossed behind my back for Nissan, though... :|