8 bar battery replacement metrics

[fooljoe]

With over a year to go, I think he'll probably make it - but it will probably be close. Doing a simple linear extrapolation, You've lost just a tad under 5 Ah / year so far, and you need to lose about another 5, so you're right on track. Do whatever you can to help things along...

 

[bmetzner]

Thanks. I appreciate your insights.

I completely agree with your temperature argument. With only 25,000 miles on a 4 year old car, it's got to be the south Florida heat that is driving the capacity loss. Prior to my purchase in West Palm beach, the car was in Naples Florida. I have never seen less than 5 temp bars, typically 6-7. We generally have days in the 80's all year long. 90's for 6 months of the year. The humidity is year round typically adding 5-15 heat index degrees to the temperature. Nothing like Phoenix summers, but hot year round.

I really like the car. Paid less than $12K with tax and tags. Bought it for my 18 year old, but she has trouble getting it from me! So, if I don't make the warranty, I'll probably spring for a new battery in a few years. The range is not too much of an issue for me since my commute is less than 10 miles and my workplace has Level 2 chargers available for free.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Turbo3]

Here is a table showing bars lost and a 100% charge Gids value when it should happen. Can those who are losing bars see how well this table matches what they are seeing? This would be a 100% charge from a low starting Gids ( 100 Gids or less) value not a top off which will always be low.

1 239
2 217
3 195
4 174
5 152

Right now a full charge tops off at 206 for me and I have lost 2 bars. From this table I need a full charge to stop at 195 before I lose the next bar.

 

[Evoforce]

I didn't lose my 9th bar till 41.79 AHr and 180 GIDs

 

[dex8425]

Thinking about buying a used leaf for $7500 up here in Minnesota. It has 33k miles. Was a lease from So.Cal and only has 9 bars.

It needs to lose one more bar before September 12, 2017. Chances of this happening and me getting a battery replacement?

I will baby the car. I have an 8 mile commute one way, all under 50 mph, and we have determined we won't even need a level 2 charger in our garage with the amount of driving we do. With the cold Minnesota climate and my driving habits is it a sure thing that I will lose a bar in a year and a half? No way I'm getting to 60k miles before September 2017 so the time limit is more relevant.

Edit:looks like I shouldn't baby the car. Since temps here are over 85 maybe 5-10 days per year, maybe I should charge it to 100% every day after driving it down past 80%, and drive like someone on fast and furious. And drive it as much as I can.

 

[TomT]

My, new-in-May Lizard battery is now about 17 Gids from losing its first bar... I'm glad it will be gone in March!

Here is a table showing bars lost and a 100% charge Gids
value when it should happen. Can those who are losing bars see how well this table matches what they are seeing? This would be a 100% charge from a low starting Gids ( 100 Gids or less) value not a top off which will always be low.

1 239
2 217
3 195
4 174
5 152

 

[Reddy]

Thinking about buying a used leaf for $7500 up here in Minnesota. It has 33k miles. Was a lease from So.Cal and only has 9 bars.

It needs to lose one more bar before September 12, 2017. Chances of this happening and me getting a battery replacement?

I will baby the car. I have an 8 mile commute one way, all under 50 mph, and we have determined we won't even need a level 2 charger in our garage with the amount of driving we do. With the cold Minnesota climate and my driving habits is it a sure thing that I will lose a bar in a year and a half? No way I'm getting to 60k miles before September 2017 so the time limit is more relevant.

Edit:looks like I shouldn't baby the car. Since temps here are over 85 maybe 5-10 days per year, maybe I should charge it to 100% every day after driving it down past 80%, and drive like someone on fast and furious. And drive it as much as I can.

I think you have a "decent" chance, but you need to get LeafSpy and compare the AHr number to determine better. If the car has DCQC (two plug in locations in the front), and you have some QC stations around, then you have an even better chance. Make sure to QC every chance you get, drive as fast and accelerate/decelerate as fast as possible. Plus, drive to IA or KS for the summer and leave it there with friends or family! Oh, and make sure you confirm with Nissan (1-800-NOGASEV) that the car is part of the settlement.

 

[dex8425]

Will it void the warranty claim (or make Nissan less likely to give me a new battery) if I quick charge a lot? It does have a QC port and there are stations around. I know you can see the number of quick charges on the car.

I'm looking for an AHr number close to or at 42-43, right? I'll check it out today.
Thanks

 

[Marktm]

Another way to measure your capacity loss (without LeafSpy) that I've suggested is to perform one or more "range tests": Reset your trip odometer and trip efficiency meter after a 100% charge, then drive all the way down as low as possible. You can return home after VLBW but I'd recommend then leaving the car on and using as much power as possible (running the defroster could help) until the car eventually hits turtle then HV disconnect. Make sure you're around when this happens, as the car will quickly drain the 12V battery after HV disconnect and you could be left needing a jump and/or damaging your 12V.

After HV disconnect, take a picture of your dash to note the miles driven and miles/kWh achieved, and divide to determine your available capacity. That number divided by the 21.5 usable capacity when new is the best way I know of to measure your capacity loss outside of LeafSpy (and I've found they do agree very well.) The reason I suggest doing this is it uses only Nissan's own instrumentation and no 3rd party devices of any kind.

The procedure given by rwherrick is essentially what the Nissan chief serviceman told me (today) to obtain a more accurate reading of remaining capacity. He stated that this "reset" could change the remaining battery percentage to more like 85% with "9bars"!!. He made this statement in response to me telling him that the data from the last quick charge that I did ( based upon % start, % finish and total KWH charged). indicated that the battery capacity was around 65%. (Side note - this was in error as I used 24 KWH rather than 21.5 KWH, which results in 73%). My interpretation is that an increase in remaining capacity results from this "reset" procedure. However is it a real increase or simply resetting the Leaf's instruments - maybe someone knows?

He also stated that just because the bars dropped to 8, when the dealer does this "reset" as he called it, and the bars are restored to the correct value (I'd guess back to 9), that they would then NOT replace the battery. So, he recommended doing this "reset" asap. He did state to do a Level II 100% charge as part of the "reset" of the capacity bars.

I recently purchased this 2012 Leaf with 9 bars and ~25,000 miles - titled in Sept. 2012. I have a couple of really hot summers coming up in Texas - hoping before that time to be familiar enough with Leaf Spy, battery conditions, etc. to know definitively if/when the battery can be replaced under warrantee.

 

[fooljoe]

The procedure given by rwherrick is essentially what the Nissan chief serviceman told me (today) to obtain a more accurate reading of remaining capacity. He stated that this "reset" could change the remaining battery percentage to more like 85% with "9bars"!!. He made this statement in response to me telling him that the data from the last quick charge that I did ( based upon % start, % finish and total KWH charged). indicated that the battery capacity was around 65%. (Side note - this was in error as I used 24 KWH rather than 21.5 KWH, which results in 73%). My interpretation is that an increase in remaining capacity results from this "reset" procedure. However is it a real increase or simply resetting the Leaf's instruments - maybe someone knows?

He also stated that just because the bars dropped to 8, when the dealer does this "reset" as he called it, and the bars are restored to the correct value (I'd guess back to 9), that they would then NOT replace the battery. So, he recommended doing this "reset" asap. He did state to do a Level II 100% charge as part of the "reset" of the capacity bars.

I recently purchased this 2012 Leaf with 9 bars and ~25,000 miles - titled in Sept. 2012. I have a couple of really hot summers coming up in Texas - hoping before that time to be familiar enough with Leaf Spy, battery conditions, etc. to know definitively if/when the battery can be replaced under warrantee.

Pretty sure I gave that procedure several pages back, and nothing about it is a "reset." The idea is simply to see how much energy the car tells you it uses in a drive from "100% to 0%", then compare that to how much energy a new Leaf battery holds. Driving from full to empty is normal operation for the car and won't do anything to the instrumentation, beyond the ordinary "learning" that the BMS and GOM and so on are always doing.

Like most folks at Nissan dealers, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Bars don't come back, and you're not going to have anywhere near 85% capacity reported with 9 bars. One "reset" a dealer might do though is to apply the P3227 update if the car hasn't had it done yet - watch out for that. However he was of course rightly suspicious about you deriving an estimate of capacity from a QC, since you apparently did it wrong! :lol:

 

[Marktm]

Pretty sure I gave that procedure several pages back, and nothing about it is a "reset." The idea is simply to see how much energy the car tells you it uses in a drive from "100% to 0%", then compare that to how much energy a new Leaf battery holds. Driving from full to empty is normal operation for the car and won't do anything to the instrumentation, beyond the ordinary "learning" that the BMS and GOM and so on are always doing.

Like most folks at Nissan dealers, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Bars don't come back, and you're not going to have anywhere near 85% capacity reported with 9 bars. One "reset" a dealer might do though is to apply the P3227 update if the car hasn't had it done yet - watch out for that. However he was of course rightly suspicious about you deriving an estimate of capacity from a QC, since you apparently did it wrong! :lol:

fooljoe;
Those "nested" quotes are confusing! Sorry about the authorship. I hope you are correct about the dealer - He did seem adamant that it would result in the 85% capacity or at least increase the apparent percentage. - would not at all be surprised however, don't think they see many Leafs here in Houston, TX. I doubt he had any suspicion about the math however - you give him way too much credit. BTW, how accurate is the quick charge numbers of start/finish % and total KWH?

 

[keydiver]

Thinking about buying a used leaf for $7500 up here in Minnesota. It has 33k miles. Was a lease from So.Cal and only has 9 bars.

If it only has one bar to lose, you have a fairly good chance, but LeafSpy would tell you how close you are. My 9th bar just dropped at 43.47, which is on the higher side if I recall. In Minnesota the degradation will be much slower, so I wouldn't "baby it". Charge it to 100% as much as possible, cycle it as much as possible, and drive it hard, especially at highway speeds to really heat up the battery.

 

[fooljoe]

BTW, how accurate is the quick charge numbers of start/finish % and total KWH?

Hard to say - different types of QCs might describe different things, and I'm not sure if the SOC info displayed comes from the Leaf's BMS or the QC somehow tries to measure the pack directly. The total kWh would certainly be measured on the QC side and so would probably be an overestimate (doesn't account for any losses on the Leaf side.) By default I think I'd ignore the QC display and just trust what LeafSpy tells me (although the numbers might be the same). Your 73% result after the correction is probably pretty close though if you've got 9 bars - perhaps a little on the high side.

 

[dex8425]

The insight from you all here has persuaded me. Not going to make the 9 car bar gamble. I'd feel differently about it if we lived somewhere else.

Looking at a 2012 with 10k miles (12 bars) from Seattle tomorrow. Listed at 9800. I think I'd buy it for that, any less would be gravy. It's blue though :?

 

[Evoforce]

The insight from you all here has persuaded me. Not going to make the 9 car bar gamble. I'd feel differently about it if we lived somewhere else.

Looking at a 2012 with 10k miles (12 bars) from Seattle tomorrow. Listed at 9800. I think I'd buy it for that, any less would be gravy. It's blue though :?

Better check it with Leafspy. 12 bars on a 2012 is something you want to make sure hasn't been reset.

 

[Marktm]

The insight from you all here has persuaded me. Not going to make the 9 car bar gamble. I'd feel differently about it if we lived somewhere else.

Looking at a 2012 with 10k miles (12 bars) from Seattle tomorrow. Listed at 9800. I think I'd buy it for that, any less would be gravy. It's blue though :?

Better check it with Leafspy. 12 bars on a 2012 is something you want to make sure hasn't been reset.

Appears you are the expert on obtaining new Lizard batteries. Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this! I challenged the tech, but insisted BELOW 8 bars. These dealer must know little to nothing about these Leafs?? Anyway, I'm going to get the Bluetooth/iphone dongle and use Leaf Spy to get a better status, whenever I get final confirmation of the compatibility of such from Turbo3. Do you see any problems with obtaining the new battery - I'm going to use this car to the max this coming (hot) Texas summer! Lots of highway (I've figured out a safe route to my rural property - just have to get 1-1/2 level 2 charges each way).

 

[Stanton]

Appears you are the expert on obtaining new Lizard batteries. Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this! I challenged the tech, but insisted BELOW 8 bars. These dealer must know little to nothing about these Leafs?? Anyway, I'm going to get the Bluetooth/iphone dongle and use Leaf Spy to get a better status, whenever I get final confirmation of the compatibility of such from Turbo3. Do you see any problems with obtaining the new battery - I'm going to use this car to the max this coming (hot) Texas summer! Lots of highway (I've figured out a safe route to my rural property - just have to get 1-1/2 level 2 charges each way).

GOM miles mean nothing: it's all about how many Ahr via LeafSpy (or something similar). You should have no trouble dropping another bar before the 5 yr/60k battery warranty is up, especially in TX.
The dealer was full of sh*t on the "below 8 bars" thing: once you hit 8 bars, you qualify (no matter what the Ahrs are).

 

[dhanson865]

Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this! I challenged the tech, but insisted BELOW 8 bars. These dealer must know little to nothing about these Leafs?? Anyway, I'm going to get the Bluetooth/iphone dongle and use Leaf Spy to get a better status, whenever I get final confirmation of the compatibility of such from Turbo3. Do you see any problems with obtaining the new battery - I'm going to use this car to the max this coming (hot) Texas summer! Lots of highway (I've figured out a safe route to my rural property - just have to get 1-1/2 level 2 charges each way).

9 bars left, no free battery
8 bars left, you get one if the miles/months aren't over the limit.

so when he said below 8, it should be at 8 or less, not just below. He was right to turn you away at 9, wrong if he turns you away at 8.

 

[keydiver]

Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this!

Why are you calling it a "9 bar" Leaf if it actually has 8 bars? I'm confused. :? If in fact you have LOST 4 BARS, you need to call the 877-664-2738 phone number for Nissan EV Customer Support. The girl I talked to, Tiffany, said that if I have any problem with the dealer not acknowledging that the car qualifies at 8 bars, I should call her back and open a case. My dealer though was very knowledgeable, gave me know problems, and has my battery on order.

 

[Evoforce]

Marktm,

If you have lost the 9th bar and have 8 remaining, you qualify for a new battery. If your car just dropped from 10 to 9 bars, in hotter parts of Texas, you will probably qualify near the end of this summer if not a little sooner. What was the (in service) or original delivery date to the first customer of your car?