8 bar battery replacement metrics

[futureal]

Hello Gentlemen and Ladies too. Just wanted to let everyone know. If you read Settlement document on judge's order on battery replacement it states on page 5 of the document "Nissan will replace, rather than repair, the vehicle's battery with the 24 kWh lithium-ion battery currently used in the 2015 model year LEAF (or the most current model year 24kW battery at the time of the replacement).

I want to make sure everyone is aware. that it is 2016 now. Therefore Nissan should be providing 2016 (not 2015) batteries as replacements on your LEAF now - with 8 capacity bars, however I do not know if there is any advantage of the 2016 vs 2015 batteries.


http://classaction.kccllc.net/Docum...Final Approval of Class Action Settlement.pdf

 

[fooljoe]

Appears you are the expert on obtaining new Lizard batteries. Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this! I challenged the tech, but insisted BELOW 8 bars. These dealer must know little to nothing about these Leafs?? Anyway, I'm going to get the Bluetooth/iphone dongle and use Leaf Spy to get a better status, whenever I get final confirmation of the compatibility of such from Turbo3. Do you see any problems with obtaining the new battery - I'm going to use this car to the max this coming (hot) Texas summer! Lots of highway (I've figured out a safe route to my rural property - just have to get 1-1/2 level 2 charges each way).

Seems like you might have misinterpreted the range test procedure I outlined... How far did you drive after your 100% charge before the battery died? And what was the miles/kWh for just that drive? In order to get those numbers you need to reset your trip odometer and trip efficiency meter BEFORE starting your drive and after charging to 100%. You use the little buttons to the left of the steering wheel to achieve this with the dash display - ignore the GOM (the "77 miles" that the Leaf thinks you can drive) and ignore anything on the LCD screen (this is the car's cumulative efficiency - not helpful for recording the efficiency of a single drive/charge.)

 

[Marktm]

Appears you are the expert on obtaining new Lizard batteries. Yesterday I ran my 2012 Leaf, (25800 miles, 9 bars, Sept. 2012 titled) to the DC disconnect. Actually had to push it down my street as the "turtle" died! After 100% recharge it shows 77 miles (12 bars), 3.1 m/Kwh on the status screen and 77 miles, 3.6mi/Kwh on the LCD "energy" screen. The bulk of the trip was to a local dealer (in Tx) who told me that the bars must go BELOW 8 to obtain a new battery - first I heard of this! I challenged the tech, but insisted BELOW 8 bars. These dealer must know little to nothing about these Leafs?? Anyway, I'm going to get the Bluetooth/iphone dongle and use Leaf Spy to get a better status, whenever I get final confirmation of the compatibility of such from Turbo3. Do you see any problems with obtaining the new battery - I'm going to use this car to the max this coming (hot) Texas summer! Lots of highway (I've figured out a safe route to my rural property - just have to get 1-1/2 level 2 charges each way).

Seems like you might have misinterpreted the range test procedure I outlined... How far did you drive after your 100% charge before the battery died? And what was the miles/kWh for just that drive? In order to get those numbers you need to reset your trip odometer and trip efficiency meter BEFORE starting your drive and after charging to 100%. You use the little buttons to the left of the steering wheel to achieve this with the dash display - ignore the GOM (the "77 miles" that the Leaf thinks you can drive) and ignore anything on the LCD screen (this is the car's cumulative efficiency - not helpful for recording the efficiency of a single drive/charge.)

No misinterpretation - my confusing post! The major issue of the post was the adamant battery service tech stating (and reconfirmed after more questioning) that the "battery capacity level gauge" must go BELOW 8 bars!! Another case of dealers not knowing the facts (I'm assuming).

As to procedure you suggested, I did use the actual logged mileage for the trip (starting with a 100% charge and ending in DC cut-off) which was 48.6 miles on the "dot matrix" display (center of driver's screen - NOT the LCD/Navigation "energy" screen). This resulted in a total energy expended of 48.6/3.1 = 15.7 KWH? The confusion to me was the differing mi/KWH on the "dot matrix" screen (3.1 mi/KWH) vrs the energy screen (3.6 mi/KWH). Apparently the energy screen is a longer average and the dot matrix is the actual between resets.

I've noticed that the "available charge gauge" drops "like a rock" during the first few miles - and is meaningless in the early driving range. Also, when it is at the bottom of the range - it stayed at 4 miles for several miles!

 

[dhanson865]

Hello Gentlemen and Ladies too. Just wanted to let everyone know. If you read Settlement document on judge's order on battery replacement it states on page 5 of the document "Nissan will replace, rather than repair, the vehicle's battery with the 24 kWh lithium-ion battery currently used in the 2015 model year LEAF (or the most current model year 24kW battery at the time of the replacement).

I want to make sure everyone is aware. that it is 2016 now. Therefore Nissan should be providing 2016 (not 2015) batteries as replacements on your LEAF now - with 8 capacity bars, however I do not know if there is any advantage of the 2016 vs 2015 batteries.

A 2016 version of the 24 kWh battery will be no different than the 2015 version of the 24 kWh battery.

While it'd be nice to see improvement they tend to wait several years between pack changes. I expect Leaf 2 with a 60 kWh pack will be out before we see any changes in what people get as a free replacement pack due to degradation.

 

[Firetruck41]

Fyi, you can reset both mi/kwh displays (dash and center stack display). They read the same every time I have reset them at the same time.

 

[Marktm]

Marktm,

If you have lost the 9th bar and have 8 remaining, you qualify for a new battery. If your car just dropped from 10 to 9 bars, in hotter parts of Texas, you will probably qualify near the end of this summer if not a little sooner. What was the (in service) or original delivery date to the first customer of your car?

Evoforce;
The original leasee got title in Sept. 2012. The only owner. Bought it early Jan. 2016. 25300 miles with 9 bars on the GOM. Best estimate I can do (without LeafSpy) is currently a 15.7 KWH capacity battery. Getting LeafSpy as soon as I can confirm with Turbo3 the exact iphone requirements (of the best Bluetooth dongle) and a "beta test" version requirement of his software.

Getting confusing requirements from both local Nissan Dealers (from their "battery tech" guys). Hoping to go to 8 bars this summer sometime and plan on going for the replacement immediately - I think the adage of "make hay while the sun shines" is appropriate. You've obviously got a good track record of replacement - I'll keep you posted.

 

[Flyct]

No misinterpretation - my confusing post! The major issue of the post was the adamant battery service tech stating (and reconfirmed after more questioning) that the "battery capacity level gauge" must go BELOW 8 bars!! Another case of dealers not knowing the facts (I'm assuming).

From Warranty info on the 2016. Same for other years except for the reference to the 30kWh battery.

Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles with the 24kWh battery and 96 months or 100,000 miles with the 30kWh battery, whichever comes first. [*] See your Owner's Manual for tips on maximizing battery life and capacity.

 

[Evoforce]

Hello Gentlemen and Ladies too. Just wanted to let everyone know. If you read Settlement document on judge's order on battery replacement it states on page 5 of the document "Nissan will replace, rather than repair, the vehicle's battery with the 24 kWh lithium-ion battery currently used in the 2015 model year LEAF (or the most current model year 24kW battery at the time of the replacement).

I want to make sure everyone is aware. that it is 2016 now. Therefore Nissan should be providing 2016 (not 2015) batteries as replacements on your LEAF now - with 8 capacity bars, however I do not know if there is any advantage of the 2016 vs 2015 batteries.


http://classaction.kccllc.net/Docum...Final Approval of Class Action Settlement.pdf

I assume the 2016 Model S 24kWh battery is the same battery as the 2015 Model S/SV/SL. The 2016 SV/SL is a 30kWh battery and does not qualify as a 24kWh replacement. You seem to be confused... Or am I confused about what you are saying?

 

[TimLee]

Fyi, you can reset both mi/kwh displays (dash and center stack display). They read the same every time I have reset them at the same time.

Sometimes they match.
Sometimes they don't.
There is a lot of discussion about the differences in early threads back in 2011.
But I don't think there was a clear explanation of what is different about the two measurements.

 

[fooljoe]

As to procedure you suggested, I did use the actual logged mileage for the trip (starting with a 100% charge and ending in DC cut-off) which was 48.6 miles on the "dot matrix" display (center of driver's screen - NOT the LCD/Navigation "energy" screen). This resulted in a total energy expended of 48.6/3.1 = 15.7 KWH? The confusion to me was the differing mi/KWH on the "dot matrix" screen (3.1 mi/KWH) vrs the energy screen (3.6 mi/KWH). Apparently the energy screen is a longer average and the dot matrix is the actual between resets.

I've noticed that the "available charge gauge" drops "like a rock" during the first few miles - and is meaningless in the early driving range. Also, when it is at the bottom of the range - it stayed at 4 miles for several miles!

So 15.7/21.5 is 73% - same thing you got after the corrected QC calculations, right? Seems like that's probably a pretty good estimate; it'd be surprising if LeafSpy's SOH was off by more than a few percent when you get that hooked up. Unfortunately numbers in this range mean the drop from 10 to 9 bars was probably pretty "fresh" - you've got to get down to about 65% before dropping to 8 bars, so you're probably looking at perhaps a whole year to get there (most of the degradation will happen in the summer though.)

 

[fooljoe]

From Warranty info on the 2016. Same for other years except for the reference to the 30kWh battery.

Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles with the 24kWh battery and 96 months or 100,000 miles with the 30kWh battery, whichever comes first. [*] See your Owner's Manual for tips on maximizing battery life and capacity.

Has anyone seen anything from Nissan on what "below 9 bars of capacity" might represent with a 30 kWh battery? We know that with the 24 kWh battery it was supposed to be "about 70%" of new capacity, which in practice turned out to be more like 65%. I wonder if that same relative threshold applies, or if perhaps the threshold is an absolute amount of energy available that's the same regardless of whether you have a 24 or 30 kWh battery (i.e. about 14 kWh or 170-180 max GIDs after a full charge.)

The latter makes more sense given the significantly longer warranty period for the 30 kWh pack, although it would be quite devious of Nissan to do it that way. I'm sure Nissan is much more careful about what they say this time around, but it seems that they'd have to at least give some answer to the basic question of what 9 bars means. I know we started discussing this earlier (perhaps in another thread), but I don't recall any answers coming to light. Maybe there's something in the paperwork/manual for a 30 kWh car, now that they're out?

 

[Marktm]

So 15.7/21.5 is 73% - same thing you got after the corrected QC calculations, right? Seems like that's probably a pretty good estimate; it'd be surprising if LeafSpy's SOH was off by more than a few percent when you get that hooked up. Unfortunately numbers in this range mean the drop from 10 to 9 bars was probably pretty "fresh" - you've got to get down to about 65% before dropping to 8 bars, so you're probably looking at perhaps a whole year to get there (most of the degradation will happen in the summer though.)

Yes - essentially the same result. I'm planning making a number of the "100 mile trips" to my rural property this summer (OK - it's going to be slow with two recharges), but it'll be worth it to me in gas savings, the fun factor and hopefully removal of the proverbial 9th bar.

 

[Evoforce]

From Warranty info on the 2016. Same for other years except for the reference to the 30kWh battery.

Lithium-ion Battery Gradual Capacity Loss:
In addition to the Lithium-ion Battery Coverage for defects in materials or workmanship (96 months/100,000 miles), the Nissan LEAF® Lithium-ion battery is also warranted against capacity loss below nine bars of capacity as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles with the 24kWh battery and 96 months or 100,000 miles with the 30kWh battery, whichever comes first. [*] See your Owner's Manual for tips on maximizing battery life and capacity.

Has anyone seen anything from Nissan on what "below 9 bars of capacity" might represent with a 30 kWh battery? We know that with the 24 kWh battery it was supposed to be "about 70%" of new capacity, which in practice turned out to be more like 65%. I wonder if that same relative threshold applies, or if perhaps the threshold is an absolute amount of energy available that's the same regardless of whether you have a 24 or 30 kWh battery (i.e. about 14 kWh or 170-180 max GIDs after a full charge.)

The latter makes more sense given the significantly longer warranty period for the 30 kWh pack, although it would be quite devious of Nissan to do it that way. I'm sure Nissan is much more careful about what they say this time around, but it seems that they'd have to at least give some answer to the basic question of what 9 bars means. I know we started discussing this earlier (perhaps in another thread), but I don't recall any answers coming to light. Maybe there's something in the paperwork/manual for a 30 kWh car, now that they're out?

I've been wondering the same thing and would like to know.

 

[bmetzner]

So, with just over 8 months to go, my 2012 Leaf is at 9 bars and AHr=46.28. Lost about 1.5 over the past 4 months, it's been a pretty cool winter here in South Florida.

Weather is warming up, humidity creeping in and snow birds headed back North, so, we'll see how it goes...

 

[fooljoe]

So, with just over 8 months to go, my 2012 Leaf is at 9 bars and AHr=46.28. Lost about 1.5 over the past 4 months, it's been a pretty cool winter here in South Florida.

Weather is warming up, humidity creeping in and snow birds headed back North, so, we'll see how it goes...

Gonna be a close one. Drive the hell out of it as much as possible, and if you succeed early wait out the summer before getting the new pack.

 

[QueenBee]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed but I've been trying to follow these kinds of threads and if so completely missed it. Here is my theory to determine at which AHr your 4th bar is going to drop it's simply ~6.25% or 4.14 AHr less than when your 3rd bar dropped. My sample size is only 2 LEAFs. I've spent about 30 minutes trying to find data about the AHr the 3rd and 4th bars dropped for the same cars but have been struggling. Does this match with anyone else's data?

 

[keydiver]

So, with just over 8 months to go, my 2012 Leaf is at 9 bars and AHr=46.28. Lost about 1.5 over the past 4 months, it's been a pretty cool winter here in South Florida.

Weather is warming up, humidity creeping in and snow birds headed back North, so, we'll see how it goes...

I am also in South Florida, and I lost my 3rd bar on 07/01/15 at 47.29 AHr. I finally lost my 4th bar 01/05/16 at 43.47 AHr. Given that we are heating up early this year, I think you have a very good chance of making it. I recommend charging to 100% all the time, and leaving it there as long as possible. Also, driving fast on the highway and charging hard will both add to the battery heat. I recommend doing both as often as you can.

 

[Stanton]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed but I've been trying to follow these kinds of threads and if so completely missed it. Here is my theory to determine at which AHr your 4th bar is going to drop it's simply ~6.25% or 4.14 AHr less than when your 3rd bar dropped. My sample size is only 2 LEAFs. I've spent about 30 minutes trying to find data about the AHr the 3rd and 4th bars dropped for the same cars but have been struggling. Does this match with anyone else's data?

Here's another sample for you: my 4th bar dropped 5.2 AHr after my 3rd bar. You can analyze it to death, but every car is different and even your best estimate is just...a guess.

 

[QueenBee]

Excuse me if this has already been discussed but I've been trying to follow these kinds of threads and if so completely missed it. Here is my theory to determine at which AHr your 4th bar is going to drop it's simply ~6.25% or 4.14 AHr less than when your 3rd bar dropped. My sample size is only 2 LEAFs. I've spent about 30 minutes trying to find data about the AHr the 3rd and 4th bars dropped for the same cars but have been struggling. Does this match with anyone else's data?

Here's another sample for you: my 4th bar dropped 5.2 AHr after my 3rd bar. You can analyze it to death, but every car is different and even your best estimate is just...a guess.

:/ Not even close so I guess it was just a coincidence. It's very frustrating not knowing exactly what it is as if one were to see the code it would be pretty clear what conditions are used to determine the bar count.

 

[Stanton]

Here's another sample for you: my 4th bar dropped 5.2 AHr after my 3rd bar. You can analyze it to death, but every car is different and even your best estimate is just...a guess.

:/ Not even close so I guess it was just a coincidence. It's very frustrating not knowing exactly what it is as if one were to see the code it would be pretty clear what conditions are used to determine the bar count.

[/quote]

That will never happen...and in a couple of years it won't even be a "thing".