A peek at the Leaf's Charger

[garygid]

Nissan's new 50kW QC "station" (isolated, regulated, Chademo) is said to sell for about $10k, right?

 

[klapauzius]

Nissan's new 50kW QC "station" (isolated, regulated, Chademo) is said to sell for about $10k, right?

They of course can utilize economies of scale...
Anyway I seriously would prefer to buy a ready-made solution anyway. Not for $10k, but then we would only need a charger that
can accommodate the maximum that J1772 can provide.

 

[TimeHorse]

Nissan's new 50kW QC "station" (isolated, regulated, Chademo) is said to sell for about $10k, right?

They of course can utilize economies of scale...
Anyway I seriously would prefer to buy a ready-made solution anyway. Not for $10k, but then we would only need a charger that
can accommodate the maximum that J1772 can provide.

Well, then we should shoot for 20kW as that's the top the spec provides.

Now, if Ingineer is right, a 20kW Isolated Rectifier would be $20,000. But here's where I think that might be flawed in the modern market: Tesla is able to offer a 10kW charger for base price, but a 20kW upgrade will cost a mere $1500 more. Now I mention this not to challenge Ingineer as I think his reasoning quite sound. We don't know if Tesla designed the charger with ground-fault protection (I'd hope they would!) but regardless, there may be solutions that would at least be less than $20,000 for 20kW. And that said, I still say the onus is on me to prove that point by finding one.

 

[KevinSharpe]

Nissan's new 50kW QC "station" (isolated, regulated, Chademo) is said to sell for about $10k, right?

from ~$7,700 at today's exchange rate;

http://www.nissan-global.com/EN/NEWS/2011/_STORY/111130-01-e.html

 

[klapauzius]

Well, then we should shoot for 20kW as that's the top the spec provides.

Now, if Ingineer is right, a 20kW Isolated Rectifier would be $20,000. But here's where I think that might be flawed in the modern market: Tesla is able to offer a 10kW charger for base price, but a 20kW upgrade will cost a mere $1500 more. Now I mention this not to challenge Ingineer as I think his reasoning quite sound. We don't know if Tesla designed the charger with ground-fault protection (I'd hope they would!) but regardless, there may be solutions that would at least be less than $20,000 for 20kW. And that said, I still say the onus is on me to prove that point by finding one.

There are DIY designs for chargers on the web, e.g. such as http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59210&highlight=charger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Note this is a non-isolated design, but it is not difficult do change it into an isolated design.
If I am not mistaken, the original idea of this "open" charger was to build it from parts salvaged from junk for under $200.

So, if you are a DIY person and you have good knowledge of electronics, it would not be difficult to be build an isolated 10-20 kW charger at a reasonable cost (for parts that is...time is a resource too).

The big caveat is:

a) You would need to be proficient enough to understand the designs, especially as far as safety is concerned. If you follow the discussion on this forum http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59210&highlight=charger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; , the design was off to some rocky start and was far from perfect (and safe).
Being open, it seems to have quite evolved now.

b) You would have to be confident enough in your work to actually hook up your self made contraption to 240 V 50 amp outlet and plug it in.
As Ingineer rightly pointed out, the least of your worries would be to destroy your precious Leaf. Serious injury and death could be the consequences of a poor design or implementation of it. Certain components apparently can explode if wrongly connected at these powerlevels, so in addition to electrocution and burns, there is also shrapnel to worry about.

If you pay big bucks for something somebody else made, you always have the comfort of blaming them (and get compensation), wheres with the DIY approach, you are on your own.

 

[EVDRIVER]

Nissan's new 50kW QC "station" (isolated, regulated, Chademo) is said to sell for about $10k, right?

They of course can utilize economies of scale...
Anyway I seriously would prefer to buy a ready-made solution anyway. Not for $10k, but then we would only need a charger that
can accommodate the maximum that J1772 can provide.

Well, then we should shoot for 20kW as that's the top the spec provides.

Now, if Ingineer is right, a 20kW Isolated Rectifier would be $20,000. But here's where I think that might be flawed in the modern market: Tesla is able to offer a 10kW charger for base price, but a 20kW upgrade will cost a mere $1500 more. Now I mention this not to challenge Ingineer as I think his reasoning quite sound. We don't know if Tesla designed the charger with ground-fault protection (I'd hope they would!) but regardless, there may be solutions that would at least be less than $20,000 for 20kW. And that said, I still say the onus is on me to prove that point by finding one.

The Tesla design is very different and leverages other parts of the drive system. If you put a Tesla motor in your LEAF you can have that charger. It is not a separate charger like the LEAF and it is grid-tied. Go to the ACP site and read about the old yet innovative technology. This is a true EV innovation that is different than anything else out there, not another version of the same tech. Nissan can call themselves innovators but there is not a single significant or distinct EV innovation on the LEAF. Basic ICE car modification, traction pack, standard EV motor, basic charger, very poor user interface. The Tesla has innovation even if it is not their own. The only innovation on the LEAF perceived.

 

[Ingineer]

Now, if Ingineer is right, a 20kW Isolated Rectifier would be $20,000. But here's where I think that might be flawed in the modern market: Tesla is able to offer a 10kW charger for base price, but a 20kW upgrade will cost a mere $1500 more. Now I mention this not to challenge Ingineer as I think his reasoning quite sound. We don't know if Tesla designed the charger with ground-fault protection (I'd hope they would!) but regardless, there may be solutions that would at least be less than $20,000 for 20kW. And that said, I still say the onus is on me to prove that point by finding one.

Tesla is making use of existing hardware in the car to add this capability, it's not a new "rectifier" as you put it. Btw, this would be properly called a switch-mode power supply. A rectifier is simply 4 diodes, and is just a small part of the overall power supply design (charger).

Nissan's example is the one that stands out. Supposedly they are going to sell a 50kW-capable unit, including the well over $2k CHAdeMO connector/cable for under 10k! That's pretty phenomenal, and only possible with their massive supply chain and relationships with suppliers. It's also likely they are subsidizing it, or at least taking a loss on the first X number of units until the economies of scale kick in.

Yes, You can get a 8kW Chinese made low quality switch-mode supply for about $3-4K once you pay shipping, which is about half the typical $1 / Watt figure, but it may only last a few months riding around under the hood of your car.

It will cost me over $1 / Watt to design, test, and sell a reliable ground-up design, but I don't have the resources and buying power Nissan (or even Tesla) does. Then I still have to make some money somehow.

I can definitely convert an existing design to work for a lot less, providing we can find one. Obviously if we can buy a Nissan QC for $8k delivered, that's hard to beat. I can convert this to work at lower power levels easily so it can be installed in a residential situation. As soon as they are available for sale, someone let me know, and I'll get one for evaluation.

-Phil

 

[klapauzius]

I can definitely convert an existing design to work for a lot less, providing we can find one. Obviously if we can buy a Nissan QC for $8k delivered, that's hard to beat. I can convert this to work at lower power levels easily so it can be installed in a residential situation. As soon as they are available for sale, someone let me know, and I'll get one for evaluation.

-Phil

I would think that for most people, at home charging is not such a big issue.

A portable design would be great to be able to take advantage of existing L2-J1772 infrastructure that can provide faster charging on the go than is currently possible with the built-in 3.3 kW charger.

You would not really need something that has to be installed permanently in the car...just a box with a standard 240 V and J1772 connector as input and a CHaDeMO output would be great!

 

[garygid]

Where can we get the technical and installation specs for the Nissan QC station?

After a quick evaluation of the input power requirements, ...
where can one place an order for one Nissan QC station?

At $4000 each, my buddy and I might well buy one.

 

[TimeHorse]

I'm hoping I'll have a chance to talk to my friend Mahi Reddy about this; he could put me in contact with the Georgia company that's making the CHAdeMO stations 350Green is buying for their electrification of various markets including D.C. If we can show a market for the external device with the J1772R and protocol, a switch-mode power supply (since it needs to support multiple input currents), transformer to get the voltage right and a CHAdeMO-P and protocol, spec it out and discuss cost, it would at least be marketable to all LEAF SL and Mitsubishi iMev.

But as we go forward I still say I want it for at-home Time Of Use charging. When I have a 4-hour Super-Off-Peak window, I want a 4 hour 0%-100% charge because I do more or less use my full pack daily. I have the ClipperCreek CS-100 so I'm quite ready to go 20kW at home. But for most out-and-about applications anything more than 6.6kW is going to be overkill for most situations.

But here's where I'm going with this: I'm pretty sure you can't set your charge timer to use CHAdeMO. It's a different bus as has been said before and the timer is only hooked up to the J1772 bus, not, I would guess, the QC Bus. So this for me would be an issue because the CC CS-100 also lacks a timer. I suppose putting timer function in the box itself would be an interesting feature but then it becomes so niche I don't think you could get that to sell at any useful economy of scale.

But anyway, if you really want it UL tested and rated, there are companies domestically with who we could certainly work.

 

[klapauzius]

I suppose putting timer function in the box itself would be an interesting feature but then it becomes so niche I don't think you could get that to sell at any useful economy of scale.

But anyway, if you really want it UL tested and rated, there are companies domestically with who we could certainly work.

Putting in a timer function is just software. The whole thing will be run by a $5 microcontroller, which can do all the things you want:

Measuring kWH used, time charges etc. For an extra $50 you can add WiFi as well. Dont worry, these things are cheap and easy to implement.

Given that the upgraded Nissan charger is now at ~ $1000 and can charge at 3.3 kW, I think it would not be unreasonable to pay triple that amount for a 10 kW portable charger. If it can be built for that cost, is another question... If the ChaDeMO connector is $2700 per unit,probably not, but if you can buy a L3 charger from Nissan for $8k, I wont believe that 1/3 of that is the connector. There must be some economies of scale there.

 

[Ingineer]

Yes adding the timer is trivial. The portability of the Nissan QC is a problem, it's simply not portable without losing your entire back seat.

A 10kw air-cooled charger is not going to be just a small "adapter box"! It is already too large to fix under the hood. The only way it might work is to put it elsewhere, or tap in the the liquid coolant system.

-Phil

 

[klapauzius]

Yes adding the timer is trivial. The portability of the Nissan QC is a problem, it's simply not portable without losing your entire back seat.

A 10kw air-cooled charger is not going to be just a small "adapter box"! It is already too large to fix under the hood. The only way it might work is to put it elsewhere, or tap in the the liquid coolant system.

-Phil

Unfortunately I havent seen any isolated chargers yet, so I can only go by the non-isolated designs, which are
not particularly heavy (~30 pounds) and not particularly large either (19.5 x 10.5 x 6.5 inches e.g. for the manzanita charger).

So those would fit into the trunk without a problem. Since an isolated design needs a transformer, it will be probably a bit heavier but not necessarily bulkier?
Anyway, probably nothing for the average user, but a small suitcase sized object should be possible.
I would envision using it for trips where faster charging is convenient and no L3 is available, but maybe a beefy 240 V outlet or L2.

In any case it would be a very specialized gadget with no mass-market possibilities (unless it becomes really small and light, e.g. like the current L1 evse, which I assume would be technically very challenging or impossible at the moment).

 

[Ingineer]

Unfortunately I havent seen any isolated chargers yet, so I can only go by the non-isolated designs, which are
not particularly heavy (~30 pounds) and not particularly large either (19.5 x 10.5 x 6.5 inches e.g. for the manzanita charger).

The Manzanita Micro PFC-50 (12kW max) is 33 lbs and those dimensions, but isolation adds a LOT of size and weight depending on how it's implemented. Manzanita is working on a PFC-75 ISO, and seems like it was over twice the size of the normal PFC-75 and substantially heavier, but a quick look didn't find it on their site.

-Phil

 

[TonyWilliams]

Where can we get the technical and installation specs for the Nissan QC station?

After a quick evaluation of the input power requirements, ...
where can one place an order for one Nissan QC station?

At $4000 each, my buddy and I might well buy one.

First, I doubt Nissan will lower the price to sub-$8000 just because of the exchange rate. You'll pay $10k, plus whatever the Aeronviroment (the distributor for the Nissan QC) can get out of you.

I won't be surprised if there's "mandatory" warranty charges, or "installation" charges (even if they don't do it), etc. I guess I'm extremely skeptical that AV will just lay down and watch Nissan units outsell their own almost $50k units.

The Nissan QC is not on sale yet... Jan 2012.

 

[Ingineer]

I too am surprised by the AV/nissan partnership on this. Seems like a big glaring conflict of interest!

Is AV going to stop selling their unit?

Very strange indeed!

-Phil

 

[EVDRIVER]

I read the EV agreement on buying one, each buyer must also buy two drone planes with each charger within one year of installation.

 

[Ingineer]

I, for one, can see the usefulness of the drones. You can send one ahead on your planned route to check traffic, be sure any desired charging stations are available, and if traffic is too bad, deploy the stinger missiles. Now if only we can get Nissan to update the software in the nav so that drone use is integrated.

And also, we need to petition General Dynamics to lower the cost of air-to-ground missiles. Group buy anyone?

-Phil

 

[TimeHorse]

I, for one, can see the usefulness of the drones. You can send one ahead on your planned route to check traffic, be sure any desired charging stations are available, and if traffic is too bad, deploy the stinger missiles. Now if only we can get Nissan to update the software in the nav so that drone use is integrated.

And also, we need to petition General Dynamics to lower the cost of air-to-ground missiles. Group buy anyone?

-Phil

At the very least, it'd be more accurate than SiriusXM's traffic reporting!

 

[klapauzius]

And also, we need to petition General Dynamics to lower the cost of air-to-ground missiles. Group buy anyone?

-Phil

How about cheap Iranian or North Korean knock-offs?
Wait, those you will have to buy with the Blink QC at US prices...