About to pull trigger on new Leaf - is this practical?

[skywulf]

We are close to purchasing a new Leaf SV in the St. Louis area within the next few months; from what research I've done, it sounds like the leaf would be perfect for us, but I just wondering if I'm overlooking something that will bite me later. A couple of the big selling points to my wife are the ability to turn the climate control on remotely and not having to go to a service station.

1. Intention is to purchase (wife refuses to lease a car)
2. We work opposing shifts; I work 7AM - 4 PM 5 days a week and she works 5PM to 6 AM 4 days one week and same hours, 3 days another week.
3. We are planning to sell one gasoline car and keep one for longer trips, but over 90 percent of our driving is within 15-20 miles of home.
4. I can charge on 120V at work.
5. I would leave home at 7 AM drive 8 miles to work and plug in. At 4 PM, I would leave work and drive back home 8 miles. My wife would then get in the car when I got home and drive 10 miles to work. Then at 6 AM, she'd drive another 10 miles home and then I'd get back in the car......
6. We tend to drive a car for many miles; i.e. the last two cars we had were sold at 182K, 224K....

Are there any issues with using a Leaf like this? Oh - does anyone run any ham radio equipment in their Leaf?

Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated!
Bruce

A couple of added comments: There'd be 8 hours for charging each day while I was at work and then on the weekends. I will wind up with a 220 charger fairly soon since I can install it myself.
We currently spend about $125 per month in gasoline right now for my commuting and grocery trips, etc since the nearest towns are both 10 miles away.

 

[Deleted member 9549]

Lease, don't buy. New technology expected to greatly improve over the next few years. Improved battery coming sometime next year that is more heat resistant.
The battery in the LEAF doesn't like warm climates. Degrades quickly, loses capacity.
Can't tell from your description how much time there is for charging. Thats a very short commute, but you need to charge sometime. 110v is painfully slow. Figure you gain about 5 miles range per hour of charging. So you need to be charging long enough to account for all the driving you expect to do until the next charge.
Level 2 charging is much faster. If using 6.6kw charge in 2013 SV, SL or S+option you get about 25-30 miles per hour of charge.

 

[DanCar]

Tell the wife lease for two years at just $200 a month and can get another new car in two years. Might want to wait for 2014 model.

 

[skywulf]

Thanks! Leasing seems logical to me considering what will happen with battery technology in the next two or three years. The wife is concerned that since we've never leased a car, the unknowns in the leasing procedure might bite us.

I was actually wondering if I might get a better deal on a 2013 model once the '14s come out.

It sounds like I'd gain about 40 miles per charging period which looks to be enough, barely. I might have a shot at getting a 220 charger installed at work.

Thanks for the info thus far!

 

[goaliepride]

Your scheme sounds good. I drive 40 miles per day and charge at night. I bought, most people lease. Leasees are betting better tech is forthcoming rapidly, I'm betting it won't improve enough for the math on a lease to be better than purchasing.

240v will clearly be the best idea. 120v will work. 4 miles per hour of charge @ 120, x 8 hours @ work, 32 miles charged while at work plugged in.

LATE 2014s are expected to have hardier batteries, late 2013/early-2014s have some variant of it, but not the final one.

 

[Nubo]

At 36 miles per day, the 9 hours of L1 charging may or may not keep up depending on the driving conditions. You might fall behind during the winter though. Especially as it sounds your wife likes a warm car. This seems like a case where the 6kW charger could really help, as it sounds like there are some short windows for charging at home. (17:20-18:00, maybe?). That could be the key to making up any shortfalls from the L1 routine.

 

[jpa2825]

I do 55 miles per day on 120v charging. (Of course, I have 11-12 hrs. of charging per night). On those days when you are not both working, you will need to try to get to 100% so you slowly work that down as the week goes along.

Charging to 100% is another good reason to lease.

Also, immediately getting the $7,500 tax credit on the lease (as opposed to having to wait for your tax return) is another good reason.

Finally, nobody knows what the resale value of LEAFs is going to be. As such, you are better off leasing. If the car holds its value extremely well (rare for a new technology), you buy it at the predetermined price. If it does not, you turn it back in and get something else.

 

[TonyWilliams]

LEASE!!!!!

If you don't know about the particulars of leasing, I'm sure there are numerous web sites to help you. Don't let a lack of knowledge force you to make the wrong decision.

Basically, the dealer sells the car to Nissan Motor Acceptance Corporation for a price called the "Capitalization". There will be a discount for $7500 for US federal tax credits that reduces the capitalization, plus what ever other discounts from the dealer. Your state may have additional incentives / rebates. Your down payment or trade-in is also a capitalization reduction, BUT I NEVER RECOMMEND A DOWN PAYMENT ON A RENTED CAR!!!!

Then, you have a "Residual" which is how much the car is worth when you're done leasing it. You can then buy it at that price, or turn the car in for a "Lease Return Fee" (typical $399).

The difference between the capitalization and the residual is what you will pay monthly in rent / lease payments multiplied by the interest rate, called a "Money Factor". This is super easy to figure out, because you just multiply the money factor by 2400 to get interest rate.

Some states have goofy ways to handle taxes, but in California, you're just taxed monthly on the payment as a "Use Tax" that equals the city / county / states sales tax rate.

Does that seem to hard?

PS: never buy the extended warranty / muffler bearing insurance / seat protector coverage / paint sealant / alarm system / on a LEASE; it's not your car!!! Plus, you are going to stay within the original epwarranty coverage of 3 years / 36,000 miles.

 

[planet4ever]

Nubo and goaliepride have it right. dm33 is being too optimistic, especially in the winter. You should count on 3.5 to 4 miles of driving for every hour charging at 120v. Obviously this can only work if you have guaranteed charging at work. jpa2825 does have a point, that with only 36 miles driven per day you can let the charge level drop a little each day and make it up on weekends. Chances are, though, you will want to use the car for other things.

I believe St Louis has hot summers, snowy winters, and wet springs.

• The hot summers will kill the 2013 LEAF battery in less than 100K miles, and we don't know what a replacement would cost, except that it will be expensive. Nissan does provide a 70% capacity warranty for $100 additional per month. But 70% won't work for you unless you have 240v charging at work. I, too, think you will be much better off leasing.
• Cold weather, along with snow and icy streets, will cut your mileage significantly. You probably don't want the S model, because its heater is an energy hog.
• Wet streets and wind also cuts your mileage. I doubt if you will get more than 3.5 miles driving for every 120v charging hour in the winter and much of the spring.

You have some L2 charging stations around St Louis, but not a lot. If your wife runs short on the way home she might need to use one. If so, she will very much appreciate the faster on-board charger that the SV and SL models have. That's an option on the S model, but comes with the Quick Charge port which is of no use to you. One more reason to avoid the S model.

Ray

 

[GRA]

A minor point, the average daily mileage commuting is 16 miles x 5 days, plus 20 miles x 3.5 days (3 days one week, 4 the next). So, 140 miles one week alternating with 160 miles the next week, just for the commute. If the OP can charge all nine hours at work for as little as 3 miles/hr, that's 27 miles/day, a deficit of nine miles/day when the car is being used by both drivers. Over 4 days you'll have lost 36 miles of range, which could be tight in winter, although you should still make it work on Day 5 and start to catch up. At 3.5 miles/hr of charge the deficit is only 4.5 miles/day, and at 4 miles/hr of charge you break even.

I think just L1 at work has a chance here (with a gradually decreasing range during the week), but agree with Planet4Ever that L2 (preferably 6.0kW) at home would definitely be better, especially given the desire to pre-heat and cool. Of course any other driving during the week and especially on the weekends will make L1 only problematical, because you'd need the weekends to recover a full charge.

 

[dgpcolorado]

One thing you might want to consider with charging at 120 Volts at work is the nuisance of carrying and plugging-in the charge cable every day. Most people who make-do with 120 Volt charging are able to leave the portable EVSE at home, although some do take it with them. Plugging and unplugging hundreds of times does cause some wear on outlets and the plug. The device really isn't designed for that. The J1772 plug that goes to the car IS designed for hundreds to thousands of plug/unplug cycles.

Your scenario would be greatly improved if you had reliable Level 2 (240 Volt) workplace charge stations. Otherwise, what you propose to do is difficult. It can be done if you and your wife are committed to making it work but it won't be easy because of the lack of home charge time most weekdays.

...Finally, nobody knows what the resale value of LEAFs is going to be. As such, you are better off leasing. If the car holds its value extremely well (rare for a new technology), you buy it at the predetermined price. If it does not, you turn it back in and get something else.

We have a very good idea of the resale value of 2011/2012 LEAFs and it is quite low. There is no reason to expect 2013s to be much different, especially if improved batteries are introduced in later models.

I bought and wish I had leased. But I am stretching the range in my LEAF and am affected by battery degradation in winter when the range drops due to cold weather. The OP is unlikely to have such issues if the car is used just for the short commutes.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Thanks! Leasing seems logical to me considering what will happen with battery technology in the next two or three years. The wife is concerned that since we've never leased a car, the unknowns in the leasing procedure might bite us.

I was actually wondering if I might get a better deal on a 2013 model once the '14s come out.

It sounds like I'd gain about 40 miles per charging period which looks to be enough, barely. I might have a shot at getting a 220 charger installed at work.

Thanks for the info thus far!

LEASE!!

if you have any concerns about whether you are getting a good deal or not, present it here first. We cant give you 100% advice (have to know too much about your credit/cash flow, etc for that) but can guide you on the basics.

as far as getting a good deal on a 2013 when the 14's come out. that only happens on cars that dont sell. with an estimated 10 days of supply sitting on the lots at any one time, your chance of scoring on a "year end" bargain is significantly less than zero. The ONLY possible exception would be if there was some great new feature the 2014's would have and if its that great, another reason to get the 2014 so cant win either way on that

 

[LeftieBiker]

I don't know why this wasn't mentioned, but if you do buy, buy an SV or SL model. The S model's heater uses a lot of power, and its resale value will be even lower than the others. The S also lacks cruise control (it can't be added) and the more sophisticated timers and climate control. I suggest an SV with premium Package (Bose stereo and the great Around View camera system), whether you lease or buy. You may be able to get a good deal on one without the QC (quick charge) package, which you don't need, given your driving habits. L-2 (240 volt) charging is plenty fast enough for you.

 

[goaliepride]

We have a very good idea of the resale value of 2011/2012 LEAFs and it is quite low. There is no reason to expect 2013s to be much different, especially if improved batteries are introduced in later models.

We have a great idea of the resale value for barely used cars given government incentives that only apply to new cars and will eventually end, sure.

 

[ttime4four]

Thanks! Leasing seems logical to me considering what will happen with battery technology in the next two or three years. The wife is concerned that since we've never leased a car, the unknowns in the leasing procedure might bite us.

I was actually wondering if I might get a better deal on a 2013 model once the '14s come out.

It sounds like I'd gain about 40 miles per charging period which looks to be enough, barely. I might have a shot at getting a 220 charger installed at work.

Thanks for the info thus far!

LEASE!!

if you have any concerns about whether you are getting a good deal or not, present it here first. We cant give you 100% advice (have to know too much about your credit/cash flow, etc for that) but can guide you on the basics.

as far as getting a good deal on a 2013 when the 14's come out. that only happens on cars that dont sell. with an estimated 10 days of supply sitting on the lots at any one time, your chance of scoring on a "year end" bargain is significantly less than zero. The ONLY possible exception would be if there was some great new feature the 2014's would have and if its that great, another reason to get the 2014 so cant win either way on that

With regard to the financial implications in a lease of '13 vs '14 -- one of the biggest factors is the "residual value". I suspect the new '14 (when the come out) will lease out with residual values 59+%. Right now, the residual values on a '13 are around 50-51%. So - in lease terms, the '13 could cost more and this makes sense because the '13 model is a "year older" and the value out 24 months would be considered to be less.

So in the math of on 2-year lease, a 10% difference would equate to the "rent" being $3,200 more on a $32,000 MSRP '13 Leaf. Or in terms of monthly lease payment difference -- about $133/mo more -- all other things being equal in the other terms. When this happens, you will see the Nissan or the dealer offer other incentives to offset the difference.

 

[Klayfish]

By the way, in case anyone hasn't mentioned it yet, consider leasing instead of buying. :lol:

I've owned over 60 cars. My LEAF was the first time I had ever leased anything, as I had the same opinion as your wife. But with the LEAF, it makes 100% sense.

 

[ObiQuiet]

My LEAF was the first time I had ever leased anything, as I had the same opinion as your wife.

Same here. I found it easier to think about the lease without all the "residual value", "money factor" etc. In the end it just comes down to how much per month and how much per mile. Think about the LEAF like phone service, water, electricity, and other monthly utilities.

Compare $/month or $/mile to your other cars, and you'll quickly see if it makes sense.

 

[skywulf]

Thanks for all the info everyone! It definitely sounds like leasing is the way to go and I greatly appreciate the information. I'm going to have my wife read thru the discussion and make up her mind. I really think the Leaf would work well for us from what I've read; especially since I think I can get an L2 charging station added at work (I work at a rural electric cooperative.) Even if I have to pay for it myself, I'd like to see a charging station in our area anyway.

 

[TimLee]

6. We tend to drive a car for many miles; i.e. the last two cars we had were sold at 182K, 224K....

I have never leased either, and drove most of what I owned to the point that it was intolerably worn out, although I hardly ever got past 140,000 miles, 20 years old. Have a 1994 Taurus SHO with ~140,000 miles that I need to take the time to sell.
So I bought a 2011 LEAF.
But with the rapidly changing technology and Nissan very bad experience with battery capacity degradation being markedly faster than they had hoped, buying instead of leasing in 2011 was mostly a big mistake.
The 2013 LEAF SL with all the options is overall a markedly better vehicle than the early 2011 LEAF SL. The only thing I like better on the 2011 LEAF SL is the electric parking brake, which I would miss on a 2013.
But all the LEAF to date and through some point later in the 2014 model year have a battery chemistry that is defective compared to what Nissan expected. Buying prior to Nissan fixing that with a new improved "Hot" battery chemistry is a bad idea.
Nissan's remedies to that defect so far are a 5 year / 60,000 miles / 66.25% capacity warranty that they offered to all LEAF buyers and leasers, although they did this as a part of a class action lawsuit. The only remedy beyond this is a tentative battery rental program for ~$100 per month that they say they will provide details on sometime in 2014.
The LEAF is not a vehicle you will be driving to 182K / 224K, unless you are paying $100 per month on it for battery rental at some point, or the hoped for miracle of markedly reduced <$200 per kWh battery price happens.
You never stated your average annual mileage, but that makes a big difference in suitability of the LEAF and on suitability of leasing. Your commutes seem to translate to relatively low miles per year, maybe 160 miles per week, maybe 9000 miles per year?
If that is the case, keep in mind that battery capacity degradation is driven by time and heat. My miles per year is now very low. I've only driven 16,000 miles in 29 months.
The problem with that, is that even in my somewhat modest temperature area of TN, the vehicle will be at <70% capacity at 8 years with only around 52,000 miles on it. And to keep driving it will require renting a battery that will cost 18 cents per mile, a lot more than the 15 cents per mile that I pay for gas and oil changes on my 2009 Altima. And I'd still be paying 3 cents per mile for electricity for the LEAF. So the cost to continue using an 8 year old, 52,000 miles 2011 LEAF would have become intolerable compared to the cost of driving a 2009 Altima.
But take a close look at leasing a 2013 LEAF SV or SL. You may find that will put you in a new car for 3 years that you love at a cost that is not a lot more than you are currently paying for gasoline. I just don't think the financial analysis for buying a new LEAF works out very well for most people.
Now buying a used 2011 LEAF with modest miles at the stunning market price of <$14,000, now that is an entirely different question. But you do have to be aware of battery capacity, time degradation, and the likely $100 per month battery rental that will also be part of that ownership experience.

 

[planet4ever]

One more relatively small point in the lease vs. buy equation: If you lease you will probably be able to get a 30% tax credit next spring for whatever you spend on buying and installing an EVSE before the first of the year. That credit expires at the end of this year. Due to a frustrating twist in the law you will almost certainly not be able to take the EVSE credit if you buy this year. But I guess you could install your EVSE this year and buy the car next year, that way getting both the EVSE credit and the $7500 EV credit. (You do, of course get the $7500 EV credit indirectly if you lease, because it is counted as a down payment.)

Ray