Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

[edward]

Sounds like a good idea, just don't buy any used packs from Phoenix or any other hot climates. :evil:

Actually..... I would! At a hefty discount that is... :mrgreen:

 

[DeaneG]

...now, DCFC. this allows us to get 30+ miles of range in 11 minutes ( http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/dcfc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . when charging the lower half of the pack...

I see the difference - you have access to DCFC in places you want to go. It's bizarrely missing from San Francisco, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. We have to haul out the gas car for those.

 

[GRA]

...now, DCFC. this allows us to get 30+ miles of range in 11 minutes ( http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2012/10/dcfc.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . when charging the lower half of the pack...

I see the difference - you have access to DCFC in places you want to go. It's bizarrely missing from San Francisco, Berkeley, and Santa Cruz. We have to haul out the gas car for those.

Yup. 6.6 kW would make a huge practical difference at the moment. Once we've got DCQC in useful places, less so. But the places I tend to drive to are among the last that will get DCQC, and having double the L2 charge rate matters.

For Deane, though, once the QC in Hayward is operational your Berkeley trips will be more reasonable. It's still cordoned off as of yesterday.

 

[spooka]

Has anyone else in Phoenix been contacted by Nissan today? I posted it on the 11-bar thread, too, that I got a call from Nissan asking me to bring my car into the dealer next week. It sounded like they are contacting other owners, too, and are flying in a technician. She acknowledged that I had called in to complain about my loss and was apologetic. Said asked about charging habits, number of miles, quick charging (she told me not to QC more than once a week), and asked me if we were happy with the car. I said that we love our Leaf, but that we worry about the degradation too much to make it a pleasurable ownership experience.

She said that she couldn't promise what they would do, but that they would check out the car and perhaps replace some of the battery modules. That took me by surprise. I've been on the fence about what to do with our Leaf, but I'm willing to wait and see what happens now. I plan to talk with them about some kind of lease conversion when I meet with them, since I know the batteries will take another hit next summer. I can do a 2-year lease, but I no longer want to own.

Yes, I was contacted on Friday also. They told me that they want to let me know next week when I can bring the car to them for inspection (who knows when that will actually be though). Not sure if the data they collect will be used to help us or them but I have my thoughts on that. They will not disclose what data they are collecting other than to tell me that I will need this test to determine my remaining capacity. The caller also stated that they will be charging my battery to 100% for this test. I am hoping that this is the step I need to take for them to repurchase my LEAF.


As far as what this video means to a person that owns one of these Leading, Epically failing, Ambient Fried cars...

I can offer this response to Nissan Motors.
Making your impacted LEAF owners whole should be your only concern Mr Palmer. Until that happens, these videos are nothing more than propaganda.

 

[JRP3]

Maybe I'm delusional, but how's that for an idea?

Probably delusional I don't think connecting 12 cells, around 40 volts, to the main pack in parallel, would work out too well

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Maybe I'm delusional, but how's that for an idea?

Probably delusional I don't think connecting 12 cells, around 40 volts, to the main pack in parallel, would work out too well

ya, no matter what size auxiliary pack you add, it has to match pack voltage. now, the LEAF already provides that function and if you could route the add on pack that way, it "might" be an option.

guessing that the cost is not cost effective. problem we have with off the shelf EV components is none of them are manufactured in very high volumes so pricing is still "exclusive" i personally think the price of a decent charger is ridiculous for the function it performs but at the same time up to now; they have all been niche products with very low sales volumes

 

[gbarry42]

So, you can't put a 55v battery in parallel with a 395v one, because it would explode. Put them in series, and you have 450v. If the electronics survive that, they will throw a fault and not let you drive the car anyway. As to your third prospect, "like the main battery feeds the 12v battery", that one has some merit. This is done by the inverter, and you would need to have another inverter that boosts the 55v up to 395. Along the way you get added weight, expense, efficiency loss, heat due to the efficiency loss, and a need to keep the inverter cool due to the heat. So, not impossible, but in the end not likely to be very practical.

Perhaps Tesla would like to make up some aftermarket batteries. They could use the revenue, and they're not afraid to attempt something like this.

17 pages of discussion has (again) turned my brain to mush, but on a few points:

We have a friend whose EV1 was pried from his possession at the end. We didn't want anyone taking our car away (what if all production ceased again?). And Nissan seemed to be making some kind of commitment to be actually selling an EV. Aforementioned friend ignored all our talking up of the LEAF until one day we mentioned he could own one outright. He bought a blue one a few months later So, yeah, those of us who remember the '90s had a different perspective on the lease/own thing.

It is foolish to say or to even speculate that you could make a statement about "everyone". We don't all think the same.

People in the warm flat lands were actually going 100 miles when their cars were new. So the 100 mile thing isn't completely a lie, only mostly. And those few that do it regularly probably think the rest of us don't know how to drive. An interesting perspective.

I don't recall ever hearing "glide slope" as a technical term--outside of aerospace, and then it's "glide ratio". It sounds like a linear function. But the waving hands are describing an exponential function. Do we even know what we're talking about, or is it just a euphemism for "keeps getting worse"?

 

[TEG]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078684_leafhacking-battery-mod-gives-extra-range-but-at-what-cost" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...supplemental lithium-ion battery...
...the leafhack involves adding its own 4 kilowatt-hour, 8 kWh, or 12 kWh, 48-volt lithium-phosphate battery pack, charger and high-voltage DC-to-DC converter into the trunk of a stock leaf.
Originally designed by the company to convert regular Toyota Prius hybrids into plug-in hybrids, the system’s DC-to-DC converter then takes 48-volts from the supplemental battery pack and steps the voltage up to 390-volts...

 

[JRP3]

Oh, yeah, forgot about using a DC/DC converter

 

[edward]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078684_leafhacking-battery-mod-gives-extra-range-but-at-what-cost

YES! :mrgreen: exactly what I had in mind.

It's actually sounds like a good deal compared with an all new battery. 4KWh system for 3,500$. A new battery would probably cost 10,000$ net as I've mentioned, and that would only get you what, 3-4KWh back?

And maybe old LEAF modules can be used in that add-on instead of new batteries, could lower the system cost further.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Edward's point makes sense, that it is more economical to add incremental cells boosting capacity on your now-depleted 16kWh battery to 21 kWh, rather than removing the current one and adding a new 21 kWh pack. If your objective is to get back to the full capacity as when it was new, then adding cells is cheaper than replacing the whole battery.

Only concern is the added weight..

 

[davewill]

Chelsea,

I have a concern I'd like to see addressed by Nissan. We've had a slow, but steady stream of people who have had to have their on-board charger (OBC) replaced because of power issues, especially with GE Wattstations, although the latest one (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10356" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false seems to have happened with a Nissan (AV) EVSE. GE released a statement pointing the finger at the OBC as the problem:

GE WattStation* and Nissan LEAF** Update

Nissan and GE have completed their investigation into the instances of Nissan LEAFs experiencing on-board charging (OBC) issues when using certain EV chargers. Nissan has traced the root cause of the issue to the LEAFs OBC software that can allow damage to occur to its OBC components while using certain chargers and in certain instances, such as when a brief under voltage or blackout condition occurs. Nissan is working to address this issue as quickly as possible, and in the meantime is advising customers to avoid charging during times when brownouts or momentary power dips may be likely, such as during electrical storms or high power usage on the grid.

* GE and WATTSTATION are trademarks of the General Electric Company
** NISSAN and LEAF are trademarks of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.

To the best of my knowledge, Nissan hasn't released anything about this issue in the three months since this announcement. If this is a weakness in the OBC, it is just a likely to happen outside the warranty period as inside. I'd like to see Nissan step up and commit to covering this defect outside the warranty period, and of course developing a fix would be nice, too.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Edward's point makes sense, that it is more economical to add incremental cells boosting capacity on your now-depleted 16kWh battery to 21 kWh, rather than removing the current one and adding a new 21 kWh pack. If your objective is to get back to the full capacity as when it was new, then adding cells is cheaper than replacing the whole battery.

Only concern is the added weight..

no it doesnt. adding power at $1000 a kwh only makes sense to someone who has that kind of money.

speaking for me only; i bought the LEAF by calculating its worth to my needs with a 30% degraded range. iow, with 7 KWh missing. or only having 53 miles (not sure how i arrived at that figure but this was two years ago... but seems about right) of range in good driving conditions meaning likely to have 45 in bad (a bit of underestimation here on winter effects) driving conditions.

i already knew i could mitigate the range issues by driving slower, etc. so there was a bit of a fudge factor as i was also counting on public charging to fill in the gaps and that has happened (or will happen) so i considered myself fortunate in that in a 2 car household, it would be relatively easy to use the LEAF in its degraded state by one of us daily.

now, the grand plan to reduce the longer commute of 64 miles has completely tanked. the expected unit transfer from Centrailia to Oly was shot down by the economy and the state budget deficit which ended causing her unit to be disbanded, downsized and reorganized so the move to the new facility in Oly is now completely off the table.

but the above is provided as background to my situation for the few here that dont know mine but to the original statement.

this add on pack does not make sense. its a band aide, an afterthought. what makes sense is to wait until that 30% degradation happens then replace it. now the cost is $4000 for 4 Kwh or $?? for 24 kwh. i am betting by the time i get around to that need; i will have made the "sensible" choice

 

[TonyWilliams]

speaking for me only; i bought the LEAF by calculating its worth to my needs with a 30% degraded range. iow, with 7 KWh missing. or only having 53 miles (not sure how i arrived at that figure but this was two years ago... but seems about right) of range in good driving conditions meaning likely to have 45 in bad (a bit of underestimation here on winter effects) driving conditions.

Use this 69% chart for a battery that has 9 of 12 capacity bar segments.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1tfX7fRWPI[/youtube]

This was a good interview. I also like--scratch, love--that Palmer acknowledged being aware of the annoying ok/cancel when we turn this on I'm glad to hear they hate it, too.

There will always be some people unsatisfied with Nissan's response to battery concerns until/unless Nissan says "Sorry, we're evil, we lied and we are coming clean." (because some people believe this).

Really, I thought his answers were good. Nice to see what the head honchos have to say candidly (insofar as it's possible) about the car.

Nice to see he's a fan of the Mass Effect games (comment around 12:40)

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I have seen the pack price, retail and wholesale and it is remarkably low. Dealer cost must be laughable in comparison to what people are guessing.

No you haven't. You should stop rambling about this matter even if you think it's a "joke". Nissan says there's no price yet, Chelsea doesn't have one, and nobody else here is claiming to have seen one except you.

 

[Coffee_Slurry]

I love my LEAF, but hate the blasted Accept/Deny button press everytime I get into my car. We should hold a blackout carwings event, try to get as many LEAF owners to all deny carwings T&C all starting the same day. We could do it to start on Black Friday? Anybody else interested?

I haven't Accepted for most of 2012. It's easier (and cleaner on the screen) to hit the Map button instead.
Nissan can have my Carwings data when they give me a way to skip this query; simple as that.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Interesting.. the day when Nissan stops asking for it, they will get it..

 

[TomT]

Someone please explain to me why pressing one button on the steering wheel is so much less of an issue and inconvenience than pressing one button on a screen?
Of all the issues and problems the Leaf has, this one is not even in the noise for me...

I haven't Accepted for most of 2012. It's easier (and cleaner on the screen) to hit the Map button instead.
Nissan can have my Carwings data when they give me a way to skip this query; simple as that.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Someone please explain to me why pressing one button on the steering wheel is so much less of an issue and inconvenience than pressing one button on a screen?
Of all the issues and problems the Leaf has, this one is not even in the noise for me...

I haven't Accepted for most of 2012. It's easier (and cleaner on the screen) to hit the Map button instead.
Nissan can have my Carwings data when they give me a way to skip this query; simple as that.

any steering wheel button requires no body movement to access. just a wiggle of a finger. for me; the center screen does require me to lean and stretch. i sit as far from the dash as i can. this is done due to airbags and my paranoia of them. sure they are a necessary evil but i do not feel the need to snuggle up to them while i am driving. and yes my arms are just about fully extended when i am driving