Are you in the Sub-80% Club?

[surfingslovak]

Resistance was futile.

Yes, indeed. One of the owners I met in Phoenix was seemingly able to delay the loss of the first bar by a few months by running A/C in his garage, which he installed for his previous EV, which happened to be an S-10. That's some serious commitment and little net result to show for it. I'm seeing very similar degradation on the ActiveE after fourteen months, even though it has a TMS and the LEAF didn't. I suspect that the TMS was not running most of the time, since the car was not plugged in. I was not kind to the battery at all, given that it's a test car. It's interesting to see that the results in terms of degradation are nearly exactly the same. The car was driven and parked in the same location like the LEAF. The battery chemistry both vehicles use is comparable (NMC vs LMO).

 

[RegGuheert]

Those of you fretting over 'hyper extending' your batteries are doing more harm than good for larger EV adoption.

You can't be serious!

Use the car as instructed and let Nissan deal with the real world data of usage, driving patterns, and battery degradation that you agreed to give them when we signed our privacy away on CarWings.

Nissan is focused on their bottom line, not mine. From Nissan's perspective, the faster we wear out our current vehicles, the more they can sell.

From my perspective, the faster we wear out our vehicles, the more money we spend and the more harm we do to the environment. To each his own.

 

[Petecomp1]

Definitely not a member. I leased the car for this exact reason (that is, not worrying about the battery), and I charge to 100% frequently. I would never have purchased this car given the current state of battery technology (not sneering at those who purchased, as I understand your reasons for doing so).
As we are now experiencing 95+ degree weather, I'll keep it down to 80% when feasible, in consideration of the next person to own the car (a short 18 months from now), and will blissfully dream of the 400-mile, thermally stable, non-degrading, lightweight, inexpensive battery that still seems so far from reality...

 

[Bateman]

RegGuheert - I'm completely serious. We have shown so many friends, neighbors, and family that a Leaf easily fits into the lifestyle of a 'real' family. We're able to honestly explain to friends and family how it easily integrates into our lives: "We plug it in when it gets low on power or we know we have a long day of driving ahead. It's just like our cell phones." The look on people's faces as their brain contemplates just how easy EV ownership could be is wonderful. "Hey, if it works for the Bateman's, it could work for us!" An EV needs to be like an Apple product - simple, and "it just works." If I started discussing the micro-management of battery tending, I'd scare off those that would be considering making the leap.

Regarding Nissan's perspective on wearing out vehicles: I don't think Nissan is banking on fast degradation of batteries as a way to 'force' a small EV customer base to return. To the contrary, it's their goal to extend the usefulness of the current Leaf vehicles and thus create equity in the Zero Emission brand. With Nissan leasing an overwhelming majority of Leafs, their credit arm - NMAC - is actually the largest owner of Leafs around! It's in their best interest to maximize the value of a Leaf on the secondary market when all of these leases mature.

In addition to providing an 80% charging feature, Nissan has also provided a warranty for batteries that drop below a certain level as well as a long-term program to buy a new battery. That's three passive actions to help provide battery degradation relief. Batteries are a consumable just like tires. Sure, it makes sense to maximize the life of these things and get the most out of them, but not at the expense of preventing the joy or restricting my ability to utilize a product with ease.

I'm reminded of the scene from Ferris Bueller's Day Off where they take the '61 Ferrari out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSjS-iCPeW8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[TomT]

Yes, but at least that is something that is a labor of love and art, not something one has to do simply to be able to get around every day...

Ever heard of Concours d'Elegance? Now, that is some serious effort and l'art pour l'art.

 

[TomT]

Yep, the day I have to air condition my garage simply for my vehicle, with all the attendant initial and ongoing costs, is the day I look for a different type of vehicle!

One of the owners I met in Phoenix was seemingly able to delay the loss of the first bar by a few months by running A/C in his garage, which he installed for his previous EV, which happened to be an S-10. That's some serious commitment and little net result to show for it.

 

[Reddy]

I understand Bateman's arguments and agree for the "average" driver. Also, there will certainly be a difference for the leaser vs owner and I would probably have a different behavior if I were leasing. By all means, let's help the average Joe/Jane get into a leased EV, forget about babying the battery, and keep it fully charged, ready to go a the drop of a hat.

However, since I'm nowhere near average, I don't feel like I'm doing anything extra, except maybe thinking a day ahead. In nearly two years, I haven't had to switch to the ICE or not do an EV trip more than a handful of times. Conversely, I do find that having the EV helps me to do more activities than I would otherwise (concerts, events in the nearby towns) because of the lower fuel costs.

I've been bicycling for more than 40 yrs, so keeping the car parked in the heat of the summer is nothing new. Driving more, however, especially in the winter, is relatively new. The EV has 10 times the range I "need" for my normal commute. That's similar to my first car with about 200-250 mi range and my 20 mi commute at the time. The only difference is now I plug in every couple of days instead of filling up every 2-4 weeks. My first car was 15 yr old when I got it and I kept it for another 10 yr. My current "new" ICE is 22 yr old and I plan to keep it forever unless someone gives me another with similar capabilities (yes, that's a serious possibility since society has managed to generate so much stuff that people literally give me their old "useless" stuff when they want to buy new technology, like computers, monitors, TVs, digital cameras, VHS/CD/DVD players, stereos, answering machines, and phones, just to name a few).

Since I bought and plan to keep the EV for 20-30 yrs , I will continue to treat it gently, but still use it just like any other tool. IMHO, it was designed primarily for in-town driving, short distances, and multiple start/stop errands where the ICE is extremely inefficient. That's my normal driving pattern (>90%), so that's what I'll do. In 20 yrs I expect to have 150,000 mi on my 2011 Leaf. Will it bother me to have "outdated" technology in the driveway? Nope, no more than having hand-me-downs in the home office. Does it bother me that I will likely have more calender loss than cycling loss on the batteries (e.g., maybe get fewer miles out of the car over it's lifetime)? Nope, It will still do those short in-town trips just fine.

I'll (mostly) leave the infrequent, long-distance, high speed, highway travel to the ICE and pay the price (10x) for the time convenience. Heck, if technology really moves along, maybe I'll just rent a 300 mi EV for those special trips (hey we can hope can't we?).

 

[Stoaty]

Worrying about specific state of charges is frankly silly to possibly, maybe, theoretically squeeze a few more 'bars' of life out of the battery in the long run.

Those of you fretting over 'hyper extending' your batteries are doing more harm than good for larger EV adoption.

A couple of points:

1) Of course you don't have to worry about your battery, you live in a climate which fits the Leaf battery limitations very well. That isn't true for everyone.

2) I don't see anyone "fretting" over extending the life of their battery, some just want to try to do it to save money/the environment or as a fun experiment over time. Remember that manufacture of the battery is a large part of the environmental footprint of the Leaf.

3) Those who are in the sub-80% club aren't telling friends/neighbors/prospective Leaf owners that they need to do this. It's a very exclusive club!

 

[RegGuheert]

RegGuheert - I'm completely serious. We have shown so many friends, neighbors, and family that a Leaf easily fits into the lifestyle of a 'real' family. We're able to honestly explain to friends and family how it easily integrates into our lives: "We plug it in when it gets low on power or we know we have a long day of driving ahead. It's just like our cell phones." The look on people's faces as their brain contemplates just how easy EV ownership could be is wonderful. "Hey, if it works for the Bateman's, it could work for us!" An EV needs to be like an Apple product - simple, and "it just works." If I started discussing the micro-management of battery tending, I'd scare off those that would be considering making the leap.

How I sell the LEAF to others has to do with THEIR needs, not mine.

Regarding Nissan's perspective on wearing out vehicles: I don't think Nissan is banking on fast degradation of batteries as a way to 'force' a small EV customer base to return. To the contrary, it's their goal to extend the usefulness of the current Leaf vehicles and thus create equity in the Zero Emission brand.

You can only take that argument so far. Do you really think Nissan wants their LEAF customers to keep their cars for 20 years?

With Nissan leasing an overwhelming majority of Leafs, their credit arm - NMAC - is actually the largest owner of Leafs around! It's in their best interest to maximize the value of a Leaf on the secondary market when all of these leases mature.

So they need to maintain a certain level of capacity for three years only. Frankly, I feel that NMAC is going to take it on the chin when many of these cars come back.

In addition to providing an 80% charging feature, Nissan has also provided a warranty for batteries that drop below a certain level as well as a long-term program to buy a new battery. That's three passive actions to help provide battery degradation relief.

Some studies I've seen indicate calendar degradation happens faster at 80% than at 100%. Hopefully that's not true for the LEAF battery, but who knows. The capacity warranty likely does not apply to our situation here. Finally, I have no interest in leasing a battery for a car that I own.

Batteries are a consumable just like tires. Sure, it makes sense to maximize the life of these things and get the most out of them, but not at the expense of preventing the joy or restricting my ability to utilize a product with ease.

Who said anything about taking the joy out of ownership or reducing the utility? Our LEAF is used for nearly every trip we take. Frankly, I get a lot of joy out of reducing our spending to the point that I can quit my day job and spend all my time with my family and my hobbies.

As I said, to each his own.

 

[hill]

Here in So Cal - since 90% of my driving is less than 20 miles each way - I'll typically charge from about 2/3 empty to 2/3 full. Even on a QC I'll not go above 2/3 full. Plus, getting on the road @ 4am (and home by 1:40pm) helps avoid heat. Garage the car @ work in the basement (keeps it cool during L1 charging) and home garage parking keeps it cool. Almost no hard acceleration, and driving like granny to get 5miles/kWh @ the wall. After 30K miles ... still showing almost a full gid count. I better darn well beat the average life expectancy.
.

 

[Yogi62]

Sort of in the club... Right now I have it setup on the timers to always charge to 80% and I hit the timer off button for 100%. That combined with the Siemens VersaCharge 2/4/6/8 hour delay feature, I can target charging up so it is ready when I am going to leave the next day and it doesn't sit all night at 80% or 100%.

I would certain like an easy option to toggle between 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, 100% charging cut off.
If I am out and about at a "pay to charge" station I might want a little jolt but not a full charge.

 

[evnow]

Here is someone who leases - and always charged to 80% on weekdays. Only because I get regen at 80%.

 

[gbarry42]

Clearly, there are people who Just Drive It, without any further thought to charge regimens, and there are people who obsess about each Watt put in or taken out. And most people fall in between. This doesn't mean that any particular method is The Right Answer For All. So I don't see a purpose in trying to persuade anyone to "do it my way".

Do you keep your cellphone charged in that sweet spot of 30%? Do you hover over the charger of your laptop to keep it right were you need it?

Interestingly enough, I do at least try to care for the batteries in my devices, and most of this is directly attributable to what I've learned here about lithium ion chemistry. My first smartphone (HTC G1) would turn the charge indicator green at 90% rather than 100%, and I appreciated that. Oddly, nothing since has done that. But I do unplug phones and computers when they are nearly charged but not fully, and I don't recharge if they are still above 80% after use.

Sure, I am over toward the obsessive side, but it's a hobby, so it's more in my head than in my actions.

In an ironic twist, the Mac book has its battery inside. This aluminum case gets plenty hot (especially when watching all those YouTube videos you guys like to link to ), and I know it's cooking the battery the whole time. Whereas the Acer netbook has its battery dangling out the back like an afterthought--Steve Jobs would have fired someone for a design like that--that battery never gets warm.

I have been an 80% guy for the last two years, commuting during the day, and charging up at night. That just changed, so now I get to see how the short-trip-just-leave-it method goes. Ironically, the guys who have the 15 miles per day kind of lifestyle, would do just fine with any imaginable capacity loss (I'm not saying you have to like it )

Finally, I drive electric because I like it. That counts more than saving money, saving the Earth, and all the other factors.

 

[dgpcolorado]

Yes, I usually charge only as needed and keep the battery below 80%. Having my Leaf DD meter makes this especially easy. I charge to 80% once a week for a carpool, a bit more than 80% for longer trips every eight to ten days (because I prefer having some regen when descending from the mesa I live on). I also tend to charge for an hour and a half or so in midday so I can use my solar directly. I have been parking my car outside overnight in recent days because it stays much cooler that way. The risk is that forest critters will take up residence in it. So far so good (but I did trap nine deer mice in my garage over the last day and a half).


As for the idea that those of us who don't just charge all the time and forget it, are obsessive and harming the cause of EVs, I have two thoughts:

1) MNL is, to some extent, an enthusiasts' forum and some of us find this stuff fun or we wouldn't be here.

2) I find being criticized by those who leased their cars quite annoying. Of course you don't care about taking care of your car: NMAC owns it! But to label those of us who do own our very expensive cars as being "obsessive" when we try to take care of them is in very poor taste. Yes, I made a mistake in buying my LEAF. But I can't undo it now except at very high cost, so I am stuck with it. I'm so happy for you that you were so much smarter than I was, when you chose to lease. Congratulations. :roll:

 

[cdherman]

Would some kind person care to provide links or links to threads where this supposed inadequacy of 80% charging is documented in a meaningful way?

Not just an "I always charged to 80% and I still lost a bar" sort of report. But something that is meaningful.

This whole site is full of anecdotal reports. Is this 80% being too much valid? Show me!

 

[Stoaty]

Would some kind person care to provide links or links to threads where this supposed inadequacy of 80% charging is documented in a meaningful way?

It is based on the known characteristics of Lithium ion batteries, discussed here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Factors_Affecting_Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We won't know for a number of years how much difference this strategy will make.

 

[abasile]

Do you keep your cellphone charged in that sweet spot of 30%? Do you hover over the charger of your laptop to keep it right were you need it?

Admittedly, I do take simple measures to care for my cellphone and laptop batteries! :lol:

Each morning after I wake up, I plug in my cellphone. Within an hour or less, I unplug it. It's mostly charged, and I haven't left it sitting at 100% all night, plugged into the charger. My cellphone is over three years old and the battery is in great shape. Eventually I'll get a nicer phone, but it'll be at my leisure and won't have anything to do with the battery.

Since my laptop is mostly used on land power, I pop out the battery at roughly 40-60% charge and leave it in the carrying case. If I'm going to need the laptop on the go, I'll fully charge the battery beforehand. This isn't much effort, and my years-old laptop batteries are going strong...

Caring for Li-ion batteries isn't really that complicated. For those who prefer to conserve and extend the lifetimes of their possessions, it's nice to know how to do it.

 

[oscar]

I charge 100% for past 2 years and average 85 miles each day of driving. After 2 yr's I have 32k miles and 12 bars reading.

So go ahead charge 100% enjoy the ride!!!

I live in Bay Area.

 

[Bateman]

The battery wiki (like so many other wikis) can just suck time away. :lol: In a good "learning overload" way of course!

Interesting to read that time and temperature seem to be the biggest impacters of battery life. We can see why those in the bay area with their all too perfect cool weather really have the best range. No doubt that keeping batteries a lower state of charge will also increase life.

I can envision the next generation of EVs using smarter proactive communications with the driver to help increase battery life as opposed to today's argument of 'plug and forget' or 'timer micromanagement.'

Imagine driving into your garage and rolling over your induction charger. As you turn the car off, it says in a Siri-esque tone, "Hello Bateman, based on current charge and usage patterns, I'll begin charging your car at 2:00 AM for tomorrow's commute, unless you direct me otherwise."

"Actually Leafer, I'll need a full charge since I'm going to the airport at 5:00 AM tomorrow."

"Not a problem, charging will begin shortly. Have a good evening."

 

[RonDawg]

Several car manufacturers, including NIssan, tried "talking cars" back in the 1980s. It's a technology best left in the 1980s :lol: