Battery Replacement Program Details

[surfingslovak]

I would have to agree. If you believe the GCR article linked upthread, Daimler will discount a Smart EV by $5,000, if you the customer opts for a battery lease. The pack in the Smart EV is reportedly 17.6 kWh, which results in a valuation of $284/kWh.

Just because they discount by $5k, it doesn't mean the battery costs $5k. As I've noted elsewhere, corporations get a nice tax benefit by leasing. So, they can lease the battery to you cheaper - just as Nissan is leasing (or renting) its battery to us for $100/month.

Yes. Please note that I referred to valuation and not cost. That said, I doubt that the kWh cost is below $300. Conversely, I doubt that it's $500 or more.

 

[GRA]

Quite so. Of course, those people didn't have to buy their battery first, then pay a rental fee on top of that with their original battery confiscated.

Confiscated ? Such terminology lowers credibility.

Yes, written in a hurry, so I didn't look for a better term. Does "Returned to Nissan without compensation" work better for you?

 

[GRA]

70% won't cut it. 70% of 84 miles is 58.8 miles, and 70% of 67 is 46.9 miles. Smart is warrantying 80% of 68 or 54.4 miles.

Why is the designed end of life of a battery pack often 70%?

Why not 95%? Or 40%?

Or, more to the point, 80%?

The lower the percentage, the longer the service life. Service life to 70% is about twice as to 80%.

The lower the percentage, the higher the initial cost for the same design energy storage.

While I'm not sure I can derive a firm minimum cost point, there surely is one. And it isn't at 80%. That is too high.

Back in the late 90s I recall 80% was considered end of life..

For Lead-acid storage batteries, 80% is generally considered the cost-effective end of useful life, at least for stationary applications. I'm not sure where 70% came from, although it's often used for lithium-ion packs used in autos. Perhaps the knee of the degradation curve is there for Li-ion. The problem with 70% for automotive use, though, is that we're limited by mass and volume as well as cost; the first two rarely apply in stationary applications. 'Affordable' BEVs currently have too little range for the majority of people if they're only warranteed to 70% of capacity. Thus, suggesting that 80% is needed is based not on the battery directly, but on long-term utility to the customer, the majority of whom would find the currently available range @ 70% too limiting, especially when allowances are made for less than ideal conditions.

 

[hyperlexis]

For Lead-acid storage batteries, 80% is generally considered the cost-effective end of useful life, at least for stationary applications. I'm not sure where 70% came from, although it's often used for lithium-ion packs used in autos. Perhaps the knee of the degradation curve is there for Li-ion. The problem with 70% for automotive use, though, is that we're limited by mass and volume as well as cost; the first two rarely apply in stationary applications. 'Affordable' BEVs currently have too little range for the majority of people if they're only warranteed to 70% of capacity. Thus, suggesting that 80% is needed is based not on the battery directly, but on long-term utility to the customer, the majority of whom would find the currently available range @ 70% too limiting, especially when allowances are made for less than ideal conditions.

What happens once it reaches 70% or below? Does the battery just not provide enough volts/watts/amps(?) to power the car at all, or does the car not work properly or die out while driving? Or does the range get shorter and shorter and shorter until you have 20 miles per charge or something?

 

[JPWhite]

a few years later, when i stop paying the $100, they take away their battery.

We simply don't know for sure what will happen in this eventuality.

If I had to guess I'd say when you rent the new battery they put a lien on your vehicle. To sell the vehicle, the lien holder will have to be paid off before proceeds are received and title be free and clear for transfer.

So if Nissan were to repo anything it would be the entire vehicle they have a lien on.

 

[jhm614]

Wonder how much carwings would help them in a repo situation? Tracking the car certainly. Wonder if they could remote disable it as well? (Or have I been listening to too much NSA coverage?)

 

[qwk]

Yes. they are stealing my battery.

How is it stealing if you have to do this willingly - knowing the terms & conditions ?

If you are trying to dramatize to make a point, note that it is having the opposite effect.

This isn't that difficult to comprehend. An EV without a battery is like an ICE without an engine. You start out owning the battery, then after a few years of premature degredation Nissan steps in and poof, battery is owned by them, rented by you. One hell of a magic trick.

That's why I own a Tesla. No premature degredation, and magic needed.

This Nissan stunt clearly shows that the affordable mass market EV is far from here. If you want to drive an EV you have to pay dearly for it whether it be Nissan or Tesla.

 

[evnow]

Yes, written in a hurry, so I didn't look for a better term. Does "Returned to Nissan without compensation" work better for you?

I'm fairly sure the salvage value has been considered when rent charges were calculated.

 

[surfingslovak]

Yes, written in a hurry, so I didn't look for a better term. Does "Returned to Nissan without compensation" work better for you?

I'm fairly sure the salvage value has been considered when rent charges were calculated.

Yes, certainly. I think the only way to know is to compare the lease prices, which will likely be offered to new vehicle buyers in the future, and compare them to what existing owners are asked to pay.

 

[evnow]

That's why I own a Tesla. No premature degredation, and magic needed.

Magic with Tesla is that you pay 3 to 4 times the cost. Or may be you are the "let them eat cake" type.

I've to say, qwk, you can quick to pounce on anything Leaf - almost as fast as Rush Limbaugh might pounce on EVs.

 

[surfingslovak]

That's why I own a Tesla. No premature degredation, and magic needed.

Magic with Tesla is that you pay 3 to 4 times the cost. Or may be you are the "let them eat cake" type.

I've to say, qwk, you can quick to pounce on anything Leaf - almost as fast as Rush Limbaugh might pounce on EVs.

That said, I think Nissan might want to consider a prepaid scheme ala Tesla, which would allow owners to own a pack outright. They would likely still be asked to trade in the old pack to keep the price reasonable.

 

[evnow]

Yes, certainly. I think the only way to know is to compare the lease prices, which will likely be offered to new vehicle buyers in the future, and compare them to what existing owners are asked to pay.

Yes - I don't think we have heard the last of this program and others. This is almost just a trial balloon.

Also, if we remember, Ghosn wanted to lease the battery from beginning, but Nissan thought that won't be possible given the tax credit law. Apparently Smart has found a way out. So, I expect Nissan to do the battery leasing.

Infact, battery leasing might become the std mode of selling EVs (to the consternation of a lot of folks) - just like the cell phone works now (subsidized phone for the contract to pay monthly). There would always be some buy options (like we still have with cell phones) - but vast majority would be lease.

 

[evnow]

That said, I think Nissan might want to consider a prepaid scheme ala Tesla, which would allow owners to own a pack outright. They would likely still be asked to trade in the old pack to keep the price reasonable.

True - but my impression is that the Leaf market is quite different from Model S. Leaf owners would prefer low upfront costs.

 

[qwk]

That's why I own a Tesla. No premature degredation, and magic needed.

Magic with Tesla is that you pay 3 to 4 times the cost. Or may be you are the "let them eat cake" type.

I've to say, qwk, you can quick to pounce on anything Leaf - almost as fast as Rush Limbaugh might pounce on EVs.

You get what you pay for, a lesson you clearly have never learned.

If the tables were turned, and you had bought the leaf instead of leased, I would bet all of my worldly possessions that you would be here whining the loudest. Nuff said.

 

[GRA]

For Lead-acid storage batteries, 80% is generally considered the cost-effective end of useful life, at least for stationary applications. I'm not sure where 70% came from, although it's often used for lithium-ion packs used in autos. Perhaps the knee of the degradation curve is there for Li-ion. The problem with 70% for automotive use, though, is that we're limited by mass and volume as well as cost; the first two rarely apply in stationary applications. 'Affordable' BEVs currently have too little range for the majority of people if they're only warranteed to 70% of capacity. Thus, suggesting that 80% is needed is based not on the battery directly, but on long-term utility to the customer, the majority of whom would find the currently available range @ 70% too limiting, especially when allowances are made for less than ideal conditions.

What happens once it reaches 70% or below? Does the battery just not provide enough volts/watts/amps(?) to power the car at all, or does the car not work properly or die out while driving? Or does the range get shorter and shorter and shorter until you have 20 miles per charge or something?

Given Li-ion's flat discharge curve, I doubt you'll be power-limited at <70%, until you get way down (i.e. turtle mode). The problem is limited range combined with the need to use a greater percentage of remaining capacity, which increases the degradation rate. For example, for a car driven daily as a commuter, IMO your commute should be doable with a charge to 80% and with no need to go below LBW regardless of conditions, except in an emergency. When your battery falls below 80% of original capacity the latter will no longer be possible (assuming you were near the limit at 80%) forcing you to go past LBW routinely, hastening degradation.

 

[Deleted member 8423]

That's why I own a Tesla. No premature degredation, and magic needed.

Magic with Tesla is that you pay 3 to 4 times the cost. Or may be you are the "let them eat cake" type.

I've to say, qwk, you can quick to pounce on anything Leaf - almost as fast as Rush Limbaugh might pounce on EVs.

You're doing it again.

 

[JPWhite]

Wonder how much carwings would help them in a repo situation? Tracking the car certainly. Wonder if they could remote disable it as well? (Or have I been listening to too much NSA coverage?)

You maybe onto something....

... Ever wonder what that orange light is up by the interior lights that almost never goes out?

It's a mic and its being monitored by the NSA...

... Nissan Spy's Anonymous. :x

 

[TimLee]

What happened to the "green battery" line we were being sold during the initial excitement over the LEAF?

Although all the OEMs now talk about being green, that their manufacturing plants generate zero waste, the production of vehicles will never be green unless we switch to a sustainable model where the OEM is responsible for final recycle / reuse / disposal of the product. In the case of EV batteries, appears that is what all the EV OEMs want to do with the battery. At the end of use of the vehicle, they want the battery back. Lets make EVs really green, make it where the OEM has a final recycle / reuse / disposal lien on the entire vehicle you purchase. That would be much more sustainable. They might actually find they could make the money that right now the vehicle salvage / used parts repurpose industry is making instead.

 

[Stoaty]

If the tables were turned, and you had bought the leaf instead of leased, I would bet all of my worldly possessions that you would be here whining the loudest. Nuff said.

I bought my Leaf, and do not regret it for a moment. No whining here. I am still on track for 12.5 years and 120,000 miles until I hit 70% capacity (based on the Battery Aging Model, which has accurately tracked the capacity loss for my Leaf).

 

[derkraut]

Wonder how much carwings would help them in a repo situation? Tracking the car certainly. Wonder if they could remote disable it as well? (Or have I been listening to too much NSA coverage?)

You maybe onto something....

... Ever wonder what that orange light is up by the interior lights that almost never goes out?

It's a mic and its being monitored by the NSA...

... Nissan Spy's Anonymous. :x

"testing, testing one two three, testing" :lol: :lol: