Bay Area: Second meter from PG&E

[leaf561]

Anyone installed or considering installing a second meter in bay area?

I got a preliminary quote from an electrician. I have to call PG&E to clarify some of his assumptions. It might be trivial, but I am not familiar with the electric codes/regulations. I hope there are no unpleasant surprises.

Any suggestions or recommendations is appreciated.

Thanks

 

[DaveEV]

Got any details on what your quote involves?

 

[leaf561]

The quote includes installing the outdoor meter, running EMT Conduit or Romex to the inside Panel with 125A load center. And finally from the panel to the charging dock.

I have also asked him to have additional provision for future second EV.

I am not a technical guy, but this is what I got from him and PG&E
1. PG&E will install/deliver the actual E9b meter
2. It is my responsibility to have the setup done for the new meter (quote includes this)
3. PG&E doesn't allow new under ground feed any more, so the new meter will be connected via my main meter. Not sure what this really means, but the electrician promised me I won't be double billed
4. Mostly he is going to run 1 1/2 inch EMT from the new meter to a new panel in my garage.
5. The new panel will have 125A with breakers for future expansion
6. I need to get permit(s) from my city (his quote doesn't include this)
7. I need to get my own charging dock.

His estimate is also within my ball park, which includes installing the charging dock.

He seemed pretty confident and knew what I wanted. I am only concerned that I might miss something and have to redo. I hope not.

 

[planet4ever]

I thought PG&E's rules for E-9b was that the line could only be used for charging the EV. Even if you are planning to have two EVs, I would think that 125A would cause eyebrows to be raised.

 

[Ready2plugin]

Okay, this might be a dumb question, so be kind....if you have a Smartmeter, why not just get a charging station that can communicate with it and avoid a second meter? Won't this do the same thing?

 

[leaf561]

I thought PG&E's rules for E-9b was that the line could only be used for charging the EV. Even if you are planning to have two EVs, I would think that 125A would cause eyebrows to be raised.

My electrician mentioned that. He said, I don't even need an inside panel. He can run the wire directly from the meter to the charging dock, probably a small breaker in-between (or something like that).

But I gave him the requirement that I need provision for additional charging. Either for me or for friends visiting me. I feel, as the technology becomes safe, there would be portable charging docks, which can go in 220V sockets like used by dryers.

And what if, tomorrow you can get a L3 charging dock off the shelf? I don't want to rewire or get additional permits, etc.

Anyway, what seemed to be a simple project, is already taking significant amount of my time, with no clear resolutions.

I have to start getting permits from the city and order E9b from PG&E. I will come to know if either of them will object.

 

[DaveEV]

Okay, this might be a dumb question, so be kind....if you have a Smartmeter, why not just get a charging station that can communicate with it and avoid a second meter? Won't this do the same thing?

None of the currently available EVSEs have a revenue grade meter in it.

 

[leaf561]

Okay, this might be a dumb question, so be kind....if you have a Smartmeter, why not just get a charging station that can communicate with it and avoid a second meter? Won't this do the same thing?

I have an E6 meter currently and I am not sure whether it is a SmartMeter. I would love to avoid adding another meter and go through the hassle of getting permit and poke holes in my garage. But I don't think PG&E supports it. I talked with PG&E and explained my scenarios. The best option they gave me was to go with either E9a or E9b. E9a will share the same baseline for charging and my house utility, so he mentioned I need to change my life style. E9b worked out best for me, because it gives a new baseline quota.

 

[leaf561]

While we are on this topic, I am trying to convince myself that I need E9b (and second meter). Please chime in if you feel I am missing something in my calculation.

With approximately 12kW/day (assuming 50% charge/day), for most in Bay Area, the rate will be 29 cents/kWh for tier 3 PG&E rate and 40 cents/kWh for tier 4. So you are looking at $3.60 or $4.80 per day (or average 4.00 * 365 = $1460/year). Not bad, because you will be saving 50% over gas for 50miles/day drive, which might be upward of $1500 saving per year.

With E9b, you are looking at flat $0.07x12=$0.84/day, because you will get a new baseline. So around $306.6/year. Comparing with gas, it would cut down from $3000/year for gas to $306.60/year for electricity, which is 10% . And I will make up my up front cost during within 1 to 1 1/2 years.

Also, my round trip to work is actually 70miles, so I will be saving a lot more.

Unless my math is wrong and there other variables I am ignoring...

 

[DaveEV]

Easiest way to figure it out:

1. Estimate your electricity cost and how many kWh/mile you get.
2. Estimate your gas cost and how many mpg you get.

Leaf you can assume gets around 4 mi/kWh.
Gas car - well - anywhere from 20 mpg - 50 mpg. I'll use 45 mpg since that's what my Prius gets.

Assume electricity cost of 30c / kWh and gas cost of $3/gallon.

Leaf will cost 7.5c / mile.
Prius will cost 6.7c / mile.

So the Prius is actually a little cheaper to "fuel" than the Leaf at those rates.

IMO if you are paying more than 20c / kWh, you should do one of the following:

1. Look at cost of using separate meter to take advantage of off-pea TOU rates.
2. See if going whole-house TOU makes sense (tough to figure out without detailed usage info).
3. Install solar panels (and perhaps go whole-house TOU, too).

 

[leaf561]

Easiest way to figure it out:
Leaf you can assume gets around 4 kWh/mi.
Gas car - well - anywhere from 20 mpg - 50 mpg. I'll use 45 mpg since that's what my Prius gets.

I assume, you meant 24kWh/100miles = 0.24 kWh/mile. Unless I got you wrong.

Looking at PG&E Electric Schedule, for bay area, it seems the daily baseline is 12kWh, which coincidently is the same kWh I expect to use to charge my Leaf everyday. So it also means, for E1 folks, all current house utility usage will be automatically charged in Tier 3 or Tier 4.

My case is more complex, since I have solar and TOU rate plan. But my baseline allowance is still the same (12kWh). Based on my discussion with PG&E, if I exceed my baseline for OFF-PEAK duration (assuming I will always charge at night), then I will pay the rate for Tier 2 Off-Peak ($0.10) or Tier 3 Off-Peak ($0.25). This might be better than E1 Tier 3 ($0.40), but still E9b will save me money in the long run.

 

[planet4ever]

While we are on this topic, I am trying to convince myself that I need E9b (and second meter). Please chime in if you feel I am missing something in my calculation.

With approximately 12kW/day (assuming 50% charge/day), for most in Bay Area, the rate will be 29 cents/kWh for tier 3 PG&E rate and 40 cents/kWh for tier 4.

It sounds like you are talking E1 (non-TOU) here, though tier 4 is actually about 42.5 cents. It might also be worth looking at E9a, whole house TOU for EVs.

So you are looking at $3.60 or $4.80 per day (or average 4.00 * 365 = $1460/year).

I agree with your calculation, if not the reason, assuming you are, on average, in the middle of tier 3 now. Since the EV usage is at the margin it should be figured as partly the tier you used to be in and partly the tier the EV pushes you into.

With E9b, you are looking at flat $0.07x12=$0.84/day, because you will get a new baseline. So around $306.6/year.

Actually I see even less than that, $0.062 if you average summer and winter. And of course it isn't really flat, only up to 130% of baseline, but that should cover your 12kWh/day most anywhere in the bay area. It will even cover a more realistic 15kWh/day, once you allow for charging loss and freeway driving.

Also, my round trip to work is actually 70miles, so I will be saving a lot more.

I think you snookered yourself here, unless you plan to work 365 days a year. You do need to average in the weekends, so forget the "lot more" part.

Unless my math is wrong and there other variables I am ignoring...

One other variable you haven't included is the daily charge for the second meter. That works out to about $80/year.

 

[leaf561]

It sounds like you are talking E1 (non-TOU) here, though tier 4 is actually about 42.5 cents. It might also be worth looking at E9a, whole house TOU for EVs.

My concern with E9a is that you are sharing the baseline with your house utility usage.

So you are looking at $3.60 or $4.80 per day (or average 4.00 * 365 = $1460/year).

I agree with your calculation, if not the reason, assuming you are, on average, in the middle of tier 3 now. Since the EV usage is at the margin it should be figured as partly the tier you used to be in and partly the tier the EV pushes you into.

This is a good point. I need to account for the different tiers.

With E9b, you are looking at flat $0.07x12=$0.84/day, because you will get a new baseline. So around $306.6/year.

Actually I see even less than that, $0.062 if you average summer and winter. And of course it isn't really flat, only up to 130% of baseline, but that should cover your 12kWh/day most anywhere in the bay area. It will even cover a more realistic 15kWh/day, once you allow for charging loss and freeway driving.

Yes, still E9b seems to be more attractive and since it is dedicated, it is more predictable. Also the family doesn't have to change their life style.

Also, my round trip to work is actually 70miles, so I will be saving a lot more.

I think you snookered yourself here, unless you plan to work 365 days a year. You do need to average in the weekends, so forget the "lot more" part.

I should probably consider 12K miles/year and redo all my above calculations.

Unless my math is wrong and there other variables I am ignoring...

One other variable you haven't included is the daily charge for the second meter. That works out to about $80/year.

Not a lot, but still it adds up...

Thanks for your feedback. This really helps.

 

[DeaneG]

Hope your second meter installation isn't expensive. You can divide the total installation cost by the amount you'd save on E9B compared to E1 or E9A to figure out how many years it takes to pay back. In my case, it looked like several years, so I put the money into solar PV instead and am planning on using rate schedule E9A.

 

[leaf561]

Based on the forum feedbacks, I have to redo some of my calculations. I will do it over the weekend.

Thanks

 

[DaveEV]

Easiest way to figure it out:
Leaf you can assume gets around 4 kWh/mi.
Gas car - well - anywhere from 20 mpg - 50 mpg. I'll use 45 mpg since that's what my Prius gets.

I assume, you meant 24kWh/100miles = 0.24 kWh/mile. Unless I got you wrong.

Yes, thanks - fixed my post.

 

[zigadabooga]

I'm in the process of getting E9B.

My main concern isn't double billing, per se. My question is the baseline usage. Am I wrong in assuming each meter will have a baseline, and that each is the same ( 495kWh/month). So my current average of 500-600 will be on my regular bill, then 260 will be on the E9B?

Also, my quote from AreoVironment was approx $2300 for an E9A setup, so I'm getting an additional quote for E9B through same electrician. That of course doesn't include the $250 meter from PG&E but does include city permits.

 

[leaf561]

I'm in the process of getting E9B.

My main concern isn't double billing, per se. My question is the baseline usage. Am I wrong in assuming each meter will have a baseline, and that each is the same ( 495kWh/month). So my current average of 500-600 will be on my regular bill, then 260 will be on the E9B?

Also, my quote from AreoVironment was approx $2300 for an E9A setup, so I'm getting an additional quote for E9B through same electrician. That of course doesn't include the $250 meter from PG&E but does include city permits.

Each will have it's own baseline and that is the best part of 9b.

 

[Deleted member 459]

Until a few years ago when we were still driving our RAV4-EV, E9-B was a great deal. We'd charge up the car 50% most days, but on some (mostly weekend) drives we'd run the car down to turtle, requiring (if my notes are correct) over 40kwH of power. Still, our bill for the E9-B meter never exceeded $30-$35 a month.

So now that the LEAF is in we're firing up the E9-B meter again. But having gone solar (E7 TOU) recently, we're more savvy about PG&E's rate schemes then we used to be and after taking a fresh look at the E9-B baselines I was shocked. Being in Territory "Q" (Santa Cruz Mtns) with propane heating, our Tier 2 baseline (same rates as Tier 1) is a miserable 9.75 kWh, enough to charge a Corbin Sparrow. Beyond that we're looking at a miserable (Off peak! After midnight!) summer rate of $.25/.29 cents per kWh, which is outrageous.

I'm sure somebody else has measured this elsewhere, but I have to ask; what are the real-world kWh measurements for a fully depleted LEAF charge? I'd be expecting well over 30 kWh here given the car's 24 kWh of battery capacity. Anyway, I also have to ask - have the E9 baselines gotten worse in recent years? It simply doesn't look like a great deal on paper anymore, and it's making me think that maybe simply shifting over the house from E7 to E9-A and getting rid of the second meter is the way to go.

E9-B rates as of 6/20/11: from http://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-9.pdf
PG&E Baseline Territory Map: http://www.pge.com/nots/rates/PGECZ_90Rev.pdf

What does everyone else think?

-djh

 

[planet4ever]

Being in Territory "Q" (Santa Cruz Mtns) with propane heating, our Tier 2 baseline (same rates as Tier 1) is a miserable 9.75 kWh, enough to charge a Corbin Sparrow.

Your terminology and number really confused me, but I finally figured out what you were trying to say. Your summer baseline is 7.5 kWh, and since tier 1 + tier 2 is 130% of baseline, that gives you a tier 1 + tier 2 allocation of 9.75 kWh per day, which I agree is fairly puny. But it is an error to think in terms of the total capacity of the battery. Instead you need to start from the number of miles you expect to drive during a month. Remember that even though baseline is quoted per day, your tier is actually set based on a (roughly) monthly average.

So, just as an example, assume you expect to drive 1000 miles per month. As a seasoned EV driver, if you lived in flat territory, I would think you ought to be able to get at least 4 miles/kWh measured at the wall. Since you are in the mountains, let's call that 3.8 m/kWk. Do the math: 1000 / 3.8 / 30 = 8.77 kWh/day. So, guess what! 9.75 is no problem at all. And with your baseline that goes up more than 50% in the winter, even with heavy heating costs and a possible drop in battery performance due to cold weather, that would also be no problem.

Beyond that we're looking at a miserable (Off peak! After midnight!) summer rate of $.25/.29 cents per kWh, which is outrageous.

OK, so let's try another example -- say you drive 1500 miles per month. Now you would be pushing up into that "outrageous" price. But wait. Since we are talking E9-b there is nothing else on that circuit, and you can't look at the LEAF as adding usage just at the margin. You would still get your 9.75 kWh/day at the bargain basement summer price of $0.05995/kWh. Since you would now use 13.2 kWh/day, you would pay $0.24907/kWh only for the last 3.45 kWh/day.
9.75 * $0.05995 = $0.5845
3.45 * $0.24907 = $0.8593
$1.4438 / 13.2 = $0.1094
So at 1500 miles you would be paying less than 11 cents/kWh in the summer. And for the other six months of the year you would have a good chance of getting by with tier 1 + tier2 (15.2 kWh/day) and only $0.06814/kWh!

Sort of makes me wish I had E9-b.

Ray