California HOV access to BEV, PHEV and HEV

[evchels]

No, I know you didn't write the letter...I just kept on rambling from my initial statement to you. ;o)

I get how AZ classifies vehicles differently than CA. And my main point about the current construction of SB535 is that I don't think ZEV/ATPZEV/PZEV is the appropriate metric for this incentive (perfect example of Maslow's maxim though) but as long as we're going to use it, let's use it for all vehicles. CNG would still get access either way, but if e-ATPZEVs are ever phased out in favor of ZEV only, CNG would go with it.

I disagree that lots of Volt folks will forget to charge up, or choose not to. I absolutely think this may happen on the PHEV Prius, and am already hearing of folks who plan on getting one because it's now their cheapest entry into the HOV lane without having to go EV. But with the incremental price of the Volt and fact that most early adopters have garages, we really have no basis to believe that Volt folks will buy that car and not plug it in. It will certainly be the exception, not the rule. The difference between that and your bi-fuel example is that short of a still, no one has an ethanol station in his garage.

As for whether anything non-ZEV should be allowed access, I think it's possible to make the bar appropriately high without making it black or white, especially in light of our years in allowing hybrid access. Making it ZEV only keeps a lot of folks for whom a Leaf doesn't work in their gas cars. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, methinks.

 

[evnow]

I disagree that lots of Volt folks will forget to charge up, or choose not to. I absolutely think this may happen on the PHEV Prius, and am already hearing of folks who plan on getting one because it's now their cheapest entry into the HOV lane without having to go EV.

The danger with Volt folks not charging comes mainly from fleets - esp. government & politicians who buy it just from greenwashing. As I said, it is best to make the HOV lane access conditional to EV mode only - even if it is difficult to enforce.

Personally I think only EVs & bicycles should be allowed in HOV - not even car poolers :twisted:

 

[mwalsh]

Chelsea, you're right on the 2012 thing. I hunted down the bill and see that was stricken from the original, but that isn't (apparently) stopping some lazy reporters from quoting it that way.

http://www.aroundthecapitol.com/Bills/SB_535

I think we will have to disagree on the average Volt driver running BEV only, but it doesn't mean I like you any less. Like evnow, I'm inclined to believe that many fleet Volts will run gasoline only. I also think a number of Volts will be subject to the laziness of private owners, who may choose to run on gas because they neglected to charge. I know I do that with gas now...if I could run on air rather than go to the gas station when empty, I dare say there would be many times that I would. Or there will be situations where Volt owners will run short of electricity on runs beyond the capacity of the pack and keep driving on gasoline.

 

[LEAFfan]

No, I know you didn't write the letter...I just kept on rambling from my initial statement to you. ;o)

I get how AZ classifies vehicles differently than CA. And my main point about the current construction of SB535 is that I don't think ZEV/ATPZEV/PZEV is the appropriate metric for this incentive (perfect example of Maslow's maxim though) but as long as we're going to use it, let's use it for all vehicles. CNG would still get access either way, but if e-ATPZEVs are ever phased out in favor of ZEV only, CNG would go with it.

I disagree that lots of Volt folks will forget to charge up, or choose not to. I absolutely think this may happen on the PHEV Prius, and am already hearing of folks who plan on getting one because it's now their cheapest entry into the HOV lane without having to go EV. But with the incremental price of the Volt and fact that most early adopters have garages, we really have no basis to believe that Volt folks will buy that car and not plug it in. It will certainly be the exception, not the rule. The difference between that and your bi-fuel example is that short of a still, no one has an ethanol station in his garage.

As for whether anything non-ZEV should be allowed access, I think it's possible to make the bar appropriately high without making it black or white, especially in light of our years in allowing hybrid access. Making it ZEV only keeps a lot of folks for whom a Leaf doesn't work in their gas cars. But we'll have to agree to disagree on that one, methinks.

That's ok Chels. I still love ya too! And thanks for all the great reporting on the LEAF!

 

[evchels]

Aww, shucks, I still like you too! Besides, there's still plenty of common ground in that we agree SB535 should be killed, just for different reasons.

The fleets I talk to (and the fleet-oriented plug-in automakers I know) are more financially driven than consumers- so I find it equally hard to believe that they'd pay that much more to get a Volt with no intention of plugging them in. Again, I can see it with the PHEV Prius, because with the various credits, the incremental cost will likely be a wash or close to it, and they'll get all the "cred" of driving plug-ins- but the Volt is hardly the path of least resistance in that regard. And yes, there will always be greenwashers in both fleet and consumer groups- but I think there's a difference between trying to guard against gaming and assuming it as the primary motivator. I'm not naive, but neither am I that pessimistic.

I'd be closer to your point if people had to go out of their way to a station to get electricity. And we have folks (esp regulators) that argue that even EV drivers will forget to plug their cars in, but it's just not borne out by our actual experience when people have chargers at home. While it technically won't be required with a Volt the way it will be with a Leaf, there's no reason to believe consumer behavior will be any different. If anything, I hear from more people who plan on plugging in at both ends or who want faster chargers for their Volts to ensure that they almost never have to use gas, but still want the "just in case" safety net.

As for drivers occasionally driving beyond the 40 miles and using gas? Of course, that's what the car is designed to do. Given how much more expensive the Volt is, anyone who never has that need should be buying a BEV. But that's still the minority of the cases based on all available data, and not what policy should be based on, imo. And I believe in pairing incentives to their intended use- HOV lanes are generally meant to address congestion during standard commuting times, and most people have a standard commute well under 40 miles. So regardless of the manufacturer, that seems to me a reasonable threshold of entry- and far preferable to people who stay in gas cars because the BEV option isn't viable for them and they see no advantage to the middle ground. I don't think PHEVs/EREVs should get all benefits that BEVs do, and we should absolutely scale incentives with amount of electrification (I was one of the early few promoters of the kWh structure in the federal incentives, though I'd have liked to see the min higher than 5kWh) and in a manner consistent with the intended use of the incentive. But I see all of this as more complex than BEV vs everything else. It's what keeps it interesting!

 

[mwalsh]

Looks like Schwarzenegger went ahead and signed SB535. :|

 

[mwalsh]

Stupid Channel 7 news just did a lead-in on Arnold signing SB535 and it "allowing 40,000 more hybrids and electric cars to use the carpool lane" and then segued into a car bit on the Honda CR-Z, which of course wouldn't be car pool eligible. :? Then after the segment it sort of looked like they tried to back-track by saying "Of course, we've got all electric cars coming out soon, and the Volt, which is a plug-in......" :roll:

 

[wq2345]

I think we're assured that the Leaf will qualify for the white sticker anytime next year without any issue. Which is a relief. Although the MiniE is not listed on the CARB-accepted list for the white stickers it also of course received them.

Few things:

1) Question - somewhere I believe I read that the 2012 Volt actually does NOT meet the EAT-PZEV requirements for the new stickers to be issued to PHEVs in 2012 (I think they will be green-colored?) and only the 2012 PluginPrius qualifies. The assumption is that GM will push CARB hard on this and get them approved and at a minimum have it approved for the 2013 Volt. Not sure of this though - was wondering what people knew on the forum.

2) By July 1, 2011, 85,000 yellow stickers will expire. After Jan 1, 2012, 40,000 new stickers (green?) will be available to the new PHEVs. Although it sounds like it lightens the HOV lane load I think this is a tacit acceptance by GM (who sponsored SB535 correct?) and others that the Leaf is going to sell decently well and Leaf-owners will inundate that little DMV office in Sacramento with white sticker applications very soon. In fact, I wonder if they might shut down the white sticker program altogether even before 2015 one day. But don't mind my paranoia - I've been driving a white sticker car since 2000 and I've always thought that some day they'll take it away!

3) As far as CNG cars losing their status - since so few are made now and the old ones gradually disappear due to attrition, I doubt they'll ever completely stop them. That being said - I've always felt that a CNG Hybrid would have been a pretty good compromise to get away from the dirtiest of the fossil fuels. Imagine if the Volt was CNG!

 

[planet4ever]

The 2011 Volt does not meet the Enhanced AT-PZEV requirements. Is that what you meant to say? I wouldn't think there would be a decision on the 2012 Volt until next summer. I've seen a variety of theories/rumors, some pretty ridiculous, such as that GM forgot to submit data, or that the ICE doesn't run long enough, even in Charge Sustaining mode, to get properly warmed up. Who knows, it could be something simple to tweak next year, like a minor change to the catalytic converter or to the computer code that controls when the ICE runs. Or, as you suggest, GM might convince CARB to "adjust" its criteria.

 

[evchels]

GM has always said that the 2013 MY Volt (which will be avail in 2012) will meet e-ATPZEV, so it will be eligible for HOV in CA at that time. There is no indication at this time that the "fix" will be retrofittable to the Gen I Volts, so those are unlikely to ever make it into the lanes.

The current Volt misses this designation purely on emissions criteria, and GM decided to keep the launch on time rather than go back and re-engineer to get this label.

There are some issues within the e-ATPZEV category (most notably, that when PHEVs were envisioned, EREV/serial versions weren't, and the testing reflects that) as well as with SB535. It's likely that some effort will be undertaken to revise both, and not only by GM. But some of the issues have little to do with GM and are unlikely to affect their effort on improving Volt's emissions profile in CS mode.

 

[evnow]

The current Volt misses this designation purely on emissions criteria, and GM decided to keep the launch on time rather than go back and re-engineer to get this label.

I'm curious what criteria the current Volt misses. Is it the amount of CO2 emissions or some others ?

 

[planet4ever]

GM has always said that the 2013 MY Volt (which will be avail in 2012) will meet e-ATPZEV, so it will be eligible for HOV in CA at that time. There is no indication at this time that the "fix" will be retrofittable to the Gen I Volts, so those are unlikely to ever make it into the lanes.

Thanks for your insights, Chelsea. It's always a breath of fresh air to have your expert input.

 

[evchels]

Anytime! My insights may be limited, but happy to offer them.

As for what the Volt misses, can't say for sure- but the emissions categories for now have to do with NMOG and NOx (CO2 regs coming but not here yet), so it's gotta be one of those.

 

[evnow]

As for what the Volt misses, can't say for sure- but the emissions categories for now have to do with NMOG and NOx (CO2 regs coming but not here yet), so it's gotta be one of those.

That points to catalytic convertrs not being warmed up when CS starts. I guess they can make a change the warm it externally using battery before CS starts ...

ps : Which one are you finally getting - Leaf or Volt ?

 

[evchels]

Yup, that's my understanding of the issue from talking to different people, though I don't know that they've ever said officially.

Still don't know- there are aspects of each I like, but I was on travel when the Leaf ordering started, so I didn't get to place mine until 3 days in...which, while I'm in LA, puts my order date in November. So I figure I've got some time...

Indecision may or may not be my problem!

 

[LEAFfan]

3) As far as CNG cars losing their status - since so few are made now and the old ones gradually disappear due to attrition, I doubt they'll ever completely stop them. That being said - I've always felt that a CNG Hybrid would have been a pretty good compromise to get away from the dirtiest of the fossil fuels. Imagine if the Volt was CNG!

The Honda Civic GX (cng) is still being made and is the cleanest ICE in the world! The engine is built to run on cng and/or up to a 20% mix of H2 and never was bi-fuel with a life of 1 million miles. It's the next best thing to the LEAF, not the Prius or Volt. I've achieved over 51 mpg hwy and mid 40's city. Mine has a range of over 500 miles hwy. as a two-seater. The least I've paid for fuel is $1.06/gge and right now it's at $1.60/gge. So, no offense, but a cng hybrid is ridiculous. You would just defeat the whole purpose of a dedicated cng car and add more pollution and worse mileage. I can't wait to go zero emissions with my LEAF (solar off-peak charging during the day)!

 

[EVDRIVER]

That's funny, off-peak in CA means darkness.

 

[LEAFfan]

That's funny, off-peak in CA means darkness.

Hahaha, I'm not in CA. For me, off peak is ANY TIME on the weekday, weekend, or holiday, except from 3-6 PM weekdays. :mrgreen:

 

[wq2345]

So, no offense, but a cng hybrid is ridiculous. You would just defeat the whole purpose of a dedicated cng car and add more pollution and worse mileage. I can't wait to go zero emissions with my LEAF (solar off-peak charging during the day)!

As a fellow CNG driver (2000 Civic GX then sold it for my 2000 CNG Camry), I fondly wish that more manufacturers would come back to the CNG fold. It was a sad day when the US manufacturers effectively abandoned that market.

However, I think you misunderstood what I meant. Imagine if you had a Plug-in Prius which ran on CNG (not unleaded). You have modified your Civic to take you 500 miles but as you know most CNG vehicles suffered short range issues (I can get my one-tank Camry to go about 300 miles per full tank - ~9 GGEs). Imagine it with a battery you could plug-in -- increase the range and reduce even the CO2 that the CNG vehicles produce. So a CNG hybrid (battery no gas) would increase range and reduce emissions - unless I'm missing something. That being said, the argument AGAINST allowing our CNGs in the HOV lanes is that they actually DO produce emissions (CO2). It sucks but California does require us to get a smog check every 2 years on our passenger CNG cars (not on large CNG vehicles). Thankfully, they can't continue that ridiculousness with the Leaf (or my MiniE) - no tailpipe!

Hey - doesn't that mean the Volt will need to be smog-checked?

 

[LEAFfan]

So, no offense, but a cng hybrid is ridiculous. You would just defeat the whole purpose of a dedicated cng car and add more pollution and worse mileage. I can't wait to go zero emissions with my LEAF (solar off-peak charging during the day)!

As a fellow CNG driver (2000 Civic GX then sold it for my 2000 CNG Camry), I fondly wish that more manufacturers would come back to the CNG fold. It was a sad day when the US manufacturers effectively abandoned that market.

However, I think you misunderstood what I meant. Imagine if you had a Plug-in Prius which ran on CNG (not unleaded). You have modified your Civic to take you 500 miles but as you know most CNG vehicles suffered short range issues (I can get my one-tank Camry to go about 300 miles per full tank - ~9 GGEs). Imagine it with a battery you could plug-in -- increase the range and reduce even the CO2 that the CNG vehicles produce. So a CNG hybrid (battery no gas) would increase range and reduce emissions - unless I'm missing something. That being said, the argument AGAINST allowing our CNGs in the HOV lanes is that they actually DO produce emissions (CO2). It sucks but California does require us to get a smog check every 2 years on our passenger CNG cars (not on large CNG vehicles). Thankfully, they can't continue that ridiculousness with the Leaf (or my MiniE) - no tailpipe!

Hey - doesn't that mean the Volt will need to be smog-checked?

Since it has an ICE, it will have to be emissions tested. Could you ever use 99.9% methane in yours? I did until the company (FleetStar) closed and APS stopped allowing the public to fuel. I wish I could find those old emissions numbers when I was using the 99.0%, but I'm sure it had to be much lower than the 90% I have to use now.