Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Herm]

So for the past 17 months, you've run 800+ charge/discharge cycles at 80 mph, and you've lost 15% battery capacity.

Its not that bad, he has 30 miles at the end of each trip so that means only 40-50% cycling.. perhaps he would have benefited charging to 80% instead, and perhaps driving slower will keep the batteries cooler. He is probably good for 3000 of those cycles or even more.

 

[Boomer23]

ADRIAN!!!

Great! I haven't heard that since high school! thanks for bringing back those memories.

Mike, that was really funny, and quick!

 

[vrwl]

Well, I just lost a bar today. Yesterday the display looked very unusual as I had all twelve battery bars, but all the regen bubbles were double circles. Today there were only the 11 capacity bars. My car was made May 2011, but not leased until Nov and has 10,400 miles on it. I park outside the garage, and since it got hot have used just the end timer, so the car charges when it is cooler.

garygTx, sorry to hear the bad news. If you've reported the bar loss to Nissan, please let us know the date reported and the Case #.

 

[planet4ever]

I Think 3 bars would be more like 40% +, if one bar is 15%. I know the 2nd bar is not 15% but still more like 10% at least. Is this listed some where from Nissan.

There was a table in the first version of the service manual, but it was removed in the second version. That may have been an accidental omission, it may have been because the table was incorrect, or (the conspiracy advocates say) it may have been because they didn't want us to know. In any event, that's all we have to go on. It showed 15% for the first bar and 6.25% for each of the subsequent bars. If that is correct, three bars would be 28.5% to 34.75% down.

Ray

 

[LEAFfan]

3 bars is 30% loss, that battery is spent.. similar to an engine burning a quart of oil every time you fill up the tank. Time for a rebuild.

I Think 3 bars would be more like 40% +, if one bar is 15%. I know the 2nd bar is not 15% but still more like 10% at least. Is this listed some where from Nissan.

The second and third bars are 6.25%, but the fourth, eighth, and the last one are each 7% (rounded).

 

[vrwl]

Well, I just lost a bar today. Yesterday the display looked very unusual as I had all twelve battery bars, but all the regen bubbles were double circles. Today there were only the 11 capacity bars. My car was made May 2011, but not leased until Nov and has 10,400 miles on it. I park outside the garage, and since it got hot have used just the end timer, so the car charges when it is cooler.

I lost my second bar today. Last night I was reading the forum and asked my wife (primary driver of the leaf) if we still had 11 bars. She said she had last checked on Tuesday and we did, but she didn't check yesterday. I told her I was surprised that we hadn't lost the second bar, given the first one went on May 26 and other folks who lost their first one after that date had already lost a second one. I then told her that with the higher temps of the last few days I expected we would lose it this week for sure. This morning she turned on the car and it showed 10 capacity bars. I think the odo is at 11,500.

Both added to respective Wiki lists.

 

[scottf200]

Is there a summary post of what the results were for the 5-7 cars that Nissan took to evaluate?

 

[dsh]

Does anyone who uses just the end timer (not input a start time), know how long it takes for the car to start to charge? Is it based on the current battery charge level?

For example, I would plug the car in at 7pm at night, with the end time set to 9:00am the next morning...will it start charging 1-2 hours after I plug in?

 

[Valdemar]

Does anyone who uses just the end timer (not input a start time), know how long it takes for the car to start to charge? Is it based on the current battery charge level?

For example, I would plug the car in at 7pm at night, with the end time set to 9:00am the next morning...will it start charging 1-2 hours after I plug in?

Depends on the SOC at plug-in time and whether 80/100% settings is selected. Computer just guesses how long it will take to charge and starts charging as late as possible so that the end of charge time and % charge is satisfied. From my experience this guess is usually pessimistic as it finishes charging 30-60 minutes before selected end time, and it is more often 60 than 30, on L2 anyway.

 

[Nubo]

Does anyone who uses just the end timer (not input a start time), know how long it takes for the car to start to charge? Is it based on the current battery charge level?

For example, I would plug the car in at 7pm at night, with the end time set to 9:00am the next morning...will it start charging 1-2 hours after I plug in?

When you first plug it in, the car connects briefly to the EVSE and learns what power the EVSE will provide. It then calculates how much time it will need to satisfy the end-timer, based on the EVSE power and battery level, and chooses the start time appropriately. It's a bit conservative though, so it always does seem to end 30-60 minutes earlier than specified.

 

[JRP3]

For a possible perspective on used LEAF values with a 30% or so depleted pack, consider this. I did an EV conversion for around $13K not including my labor, which was considerable. That got me a 50 mile max range EV out of a 1988 Fiero. Most people spend around that or more for a similar conversion. The LEAF is obviously newer, larger, and though I don't love the styling, much nicer than my conversion. I'd think there should be a market for lower capacity LEAF's in the $12-$16K range. I'm assuming some plateau of capacity loss around 30%, which may not hold true.

 

[TonyWilliams]

if the car loses more than 2 bars by 50k miles I'm not keeping it.

I suspect lots will be thinking like you. Again, why I mega happy to have sold the depreciating LEAF, and leased this one !!!! Locked in value at the end of my use, regardless of what "normal" things happen to the battery !!!

 

[Valdemar]

if the car loses more than 2 bars by 50k miles I'm not keeping it.

I suspect lots will be thinking like you. Again, why I mega happy to have sold the depreciating LEAF, and leased this one !!!! Locked in value at the end of my use, regardless of what "normal" things happen to the battery !!!

Can you share how long you kept the car and what was your total "cost of ownership" considering sales taxes paid and prorated CA rebate you need to pay back, if any, but not considering "fuel" cost?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's also about seven degrees cooler than Phoenix, on average.

Although I don't agree with some of the posters, I do believe that Gid counts will go back up by 5 to 10% in winter. That said, we are seeing very rapid deterioration, which would be indicative of a serious problem. To say anything else would be disingenuous at this point.

Orange County is 7 degrees cooler than Phoenix? That's really stretching and cherry picking data. There's absolutely no comparison of a hot day in any part of Orange County, California (it is a coastal climate) to the inland desert of Phoenix, Arizona.

If the threshold of battery "damage" (that's "normal damage" to Nissan) is 110F (I'm making up numbers for illustration), clearly Phoenix would exceed this many, many times every year, and Orange County would perhaps never reach this.

I don't hold out for that Gid increase in winter simply because we are seeing the same types of degradation (but not yet to the same level) here in San Diego (where is just doesn't get that hot). I don't think there is a chance in heck that my battery in 75F-85F summer ambient temps will improve its Gid count in our 50-60F winter. But it's still a degraded battery.

Everybody except Nissan thinks this is alarming. Toyota Rav4's with 10-15 year old batteries are still pounding out close to original range. I wonder if any LEAFs will do the same in identical climate and usage conditions.

 

[smkettner]

Does anyone who uses just the end timer (not input a start time), know how long it takes for the car to start to charge? Is it based on the current battery charge level?

For example, I would plug the car in at 7pm at night, with the end time set to 9:00am the next morning...will it start charging 1-2 hours after I plug in?

Mine seems to start very close to the estimated charge time. I have it set for 6a end time. If I come home and the 240v estimate says 4 hours charge time it will start at 2a.

 

[smkettner]

Toyota Rav4's with 10-15 year old batteries are still pounding out close to original range. I wonder if any LEAFs will do the same in identical climate and usage conditions.

How many Phoenix Rav4's? I thought it was mostly a CA vehicle. I don't know.

 

[surfingslovak]

Orange County is 7 degrees cooler than Phoenix? That's really stretching and cherry picking data. There's absolutely no comparison of a hot day in any part of Orange County, California (it is a coastal climate) to the inland desert of Phoenix, Arizona.

I'm sorry you see it that way, but these are recorded average temperatures, and they supposedly drive the aging process of these batteries. Even if you didn't want to believe that, the spreadsheet I put together in late May suggests that Gid counts are very strongly correlated to average ambient. We know that the first capacity bar usually disappears when the Gid level on a 100% charge declines below 225-228. Although a few things were missing from the full picture, this is all I needed to see and I relayed that information to folks that talk to Nissan regularly. Unfortunately, they didn't do much with this data and chose to interpret it as an edge case. Although my simple analysis suggested that most locales south of the 34th parallel will likely be affected, I would not have expected to hear of any capacity bar losses in SoCal this year.

If the threshold of battery "damage" (that's "normal damage" to Nissan) is 110F (I'm making up numbers for illustration), clearly Phoenix would exceed this many, many times every year, and Orange County would perhaps never reach this.

I never believed in any threshold temperature or hockey-stick acceleration of battery degradation at higher temperatures. To me these are chemical processes, which run faster at a higher temperature and slower at a lower temperature. The aging velocity is an aggregate process, and overall battery degradation is the cumulative result of all the changes that took place in the battery. Please keep in mind that these things are analog beasts, not digital. Degradation is not subject to some sharply defined thresholds. It happens all the time, the only thing that varies is the speed.

I don't hold out for that Gid increase in winter simply because we are seeing the same types of degradation (but not yet to the same level) here in San Diego (where is just doesn't get that hot). I don't think there is a chance in heck that my battery in 75F-85F summer ambient temps will improve its Gid count in our 50-60F winter. But it's still a degraded degraded.

Certainly, we all have our theories. There seems to be good indication that this could be happening, and I don't think that you have presented any evidence to the contrary. I would be curious to see if this phenomenon will confirmed. Whether I'm going to hold out for that myself is another matter.

Everybody except Nissan thinks this is alarming. Toyota Rav4's with 10-15 year old batteries are still pounding out close to original range. I wonder if any LEAFs will do the same in identical climate and usage conditions.

Yes, this is the truly shocking bit.

Toyota Rav4's with 10-15 year old batteries are still pounding out close to original range. I wonder if any LEAFs will do the same in identical climate and usage conditions.

How many Phoenix Rav4's? I thought it was mostly a CA vehicle. I don't know.

That Charles Whalen guy I keep mentioning brought couple of RAV4 EVs from California to South Florida. It looks like average ambient there could be even higher than in Phoenix: 74-75 F vs 72-73 F. He and his wife drove them for five years and could supposedly see clear effects of degradation. Although we don't know how far the batteries went, it was clear that he wanted his next EV to have an active cooling system. He had a Leaf on order, and planned to lease it. Ditched this idea later, and went with the Volt instead.

Here's another interesting bit he wrote in plugincars.com:

> When I said we won't know how long the batteries last,
> I didn't mean the chemistry - I meant the specific
> application in the Nissan Leaf. That we can't really learn
> by studying documents of battery performance.

Well, if it’s in-vehicle/on-road lithium battery life experience that you’re looking for, and Nissan’s specifically, you don’t have to wait 5 years to find that out. The 15-year on-road experience with Nissan’s lithium-powered EVs in Southern California has seen such high rates of capacity decay and degradation that their lithium battery packs have typically needed to be replaced every couple years. One would hope and presume that this latest iteration of Nissan’s LiMn2O4 batteries that are going into the Leaf is greatly improved over earlier versions, and I’m confident that that is indeed the case.

A good indication of how long the Leaf’s battery pack will last in a hot climate is what Nissan has been telling fleet managers in hot climates, and that is to expect a 4 to 5 year life. This is why fleet managers -- as well as many EV-savvy/knowledgeable individuals -- in hot climates are planning to take the Leaf on a 3-year lease, rather than purchase the car, and then return it to Nissan at the end of the 3-year lease. (It is for this same reason that I myself am planning to lease, rather than purchase, the Leaf.) In fact, Nissan is actively encouraging this -- for customers in hot climates to take the Leaf on a 3-year lease rather than purchase -- in order to relieve and take that battery degradation problem out of the customer’s hands and let Nissan assume that risk and deal with that problem.

Click to open

 

[edatoakrun]

TickTock, can you confirm you were down 2 capacity bars, and now since getting vehicle back from Casa Grande, you are back to 12? If this is the case, anybody have any answers how TickTock got the capacity back from 10 to 12 bars????

Yes, I was at 12 capacity bars prior to handing them the keys (I actually made a point to check since I had the car sitting unused for 2 weeks priot to that). I believe they just reset something in the computer and it will take some time for it to re-adjust. Maybe they will go away again very shortly. But then again, it looks like I picked up 10% capacity since getting it back. That is enough to get 2 bars back. I am now seeing 193 gids for 80% charge while before, I saw as low as 172. Pretty close to the 87% they told me (193/281/0.8 = 86%). I will do a 100% charge on Friday - maybe even plot a curve (surprise, surprise ).

You meant 10 capacity bars, right, TickTock?

Did any of the other tested cars regain any capacity bars?

Any of them have any increases in capacity, as measured by gids/SOC?

 

[TickTock]

Oops. Yes: 10 bars.

 

[cwerdna]

When you get to the form at https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, again, it says SAFETY at the top. If you click on the Help link, it also says "Filing a Vehicle Safety Complaint... You can use the Vehicle Safety Complaint form to register a safety complaint about your vehicle."

There can be and have been SAFETY-related defects in power windows (e.g. door fires due to faulty power window switches).

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NHTSA stands for National Highway Traffic SAFETY Administration.

I wouldn't worry about the "black helicopters" coming out of their hangers and flying over your house just yet by just sending in an inquiry.

Yes, the word safety does appear many times in the text of the web site. First and foremost this is a gov. agency for the investigation of safety related issues with cars that the manufacturer has not taken care of properly. Some would argue that not having enough miles to complete a trip is not a safety issue.

It does take in all inquiries and what are you afraid of? At worst if only 2 or 3 of us send in issues that they deem unsuitable for there mission statement , they will simply dismiss them. On the other hand, if enough send in problems, they may actually investigate. A win-win situation as we will be known as "job creators" and will see our tax dollars at work.

I doubt there'd be any black helicopters but the fact that you haven't supplied me any evidence that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is the right place in which submit non-safety complaints tells me something.

I think it a better use of time to direct the complaints to the proper body. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sounds like a reasonable guess. The other AZ body I mentioned seems like a decent place too, for AZ folks. We should obviously try to come up with other govt agencies and others that have the interests of consumers in mind.