Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[TonyWilliams]

Orange County is 7 degrees cooler than Phoenix? That's really stretching and cherry picking data. There's absolutely no comparison of a hot day in any part of Orange County, California (it is a coastal climate) to the inland desert of Phoenix, Arizona.

I'm sorry you see it that way, but these are recorded average temperatures, and they supposedly drive the aging process of these batteries. Even if you didn't want to believe that....

Please provide the link to the temp data you're using. Something doesn't add up. They've got to be taking the Phoenix relatively cool winters (that the batteries would love) and offsetting that brutal summer.

Orange County certainly isn't the same temp everywhere, but it's much closer to San Diego type weather (we're a bit cooler) than any desert anywhere in the southwest, including Las Vegas and Phoenix. To even compare them throws up a huge red flag.

Heck, it gets way hotter in San Jose, California than here (104F when i was there in June). Would you think SJC was just a few degrees different than PHX ?

 

[surfingslovak]

Please provide the link to the temp data you're using. Something doesn't add up. They've got to be taking the Phoenix relatively cool winters (that the batteries would love) and offsetting that brutal summer.

Orange County certainly isn't the same temp everywhere, but it's much closer to San Diego type weather (we're a bit cooler) than any desert anywhere in the southwest, including Las Vegas and Phoenix. To even compare them throws up a huge red flag.

Heck, it gets way hotter in San Jose, California than here (104F when i was there in June). Would you think SJC was just a few degrees different than PHX ?

I'm using average-temperature.com. Looked at other sources before, but this seemed to be the most convenient one, and the data looked the same. Perhaps it's incorrect, but I did not dig too deep. When I plugged the temps into the spreadsheet, the correlation factor between Gids and these temps came out between 50% and 70%. The higher figure included Arizona Leafs. This correlation seemed awfully high to me, especially when compared to the factors for vehicle age and mileage.

Fort Lauderdale: 75.9 F
Phoenix: 72.8 F
Houston, TX: 68.8
Dallas, TX: 65.5
Anaheim, CA: 65 F
San Diego, CA: 64.4 F
Modesto, CA: 62.8
San Jose, CA: 61.3 F
Palo Alto, CA: 59.2 F
Portland, OR: 53.5
Seattle, WA: 52.3 F

 

[smkettner]

Average just does not work. The cold does not help a nit compared to the damage from heat. Count the days above 95. OC might be 10 max and Phoenix must be well over 100. Easily a tenfold difference in hot days. Probably more. Just my WAG.

 

[surfingslovak]

Average just does not work. The cold does not help a nit compared to the damage from heat. Count the days above 95. OC might be 10 max and Phoenix must be well over 100. Easily a tenfold difference in hot days. Probably more. Just my WAG.

As I mentioned before, we would likely need temperature variance as well, but I did not have time to calculate it. Perhaps someone else does. Like it or not, most sources seem to model battery life based on average temperature, average SOC and couple of other factors. The spreadsheet I put together showed high correlation between average ambient and Gid counts. Obviously, you are welcome to disprove it.

 

[LKK]

Here's a link showing OC average min/max temps by month.

http://www.ocalmanac.com/Weather/we02.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[planet4ever]

I'm using average-temperature.com.

Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich (4' 10") once said something like, "Wilt Chamberlain and I are pretty normal guys. Our average height is just under six feet."

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

Average just does not work. The cold does not help a nit compared to the damage from heat. Count the days above 95. OC might be 10 max and Phoenix must be well over 100. Easily a tenfold difference in hot days. Probably more. Just my WAG.

I think I suggested looking at cooling degree days and heating degree days. See http://www.usatoday.com/weather/resources/askjack/waskdays.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I believe NOAA has data on the above. Google for stuff like cooling degree days noaa.

Back to Tony's comparison of Phoenix vs. say San Jose (where I'm at), see my post at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=215907&hilit=phoenix#p215907" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. San Jose is not nearly THAT bad. It usually cools down into the 60s at night and starts cooling by ~7:30 pm or so. We don't have cases where it's over 100 F at 9:40 pm.

In my part of SJ, we get into the 90s frequently in summer and occasional 100 or so (maybe even 102-103), but I don't think we ever hit 110, let alone having sustained peroids of it.

 

[DaveEV]

I only turtled the car once. Never quick charged. Commute is 76 miles and I like to drive 80 MPH on the HOV lane. So that means I have to charge twice a day using L2 to 100%, once at home, once at work, in the Long Beach port area. My garage doesn't get that hot, and it it's typically 10 degrees cooler at work. Glad I leased. Will have to pay a few thousand for the extra miles above the allowed 15k per year, but if the car looses more than 2 bars by 50k miles I'm not keeping it.

So about 600 cycles?.. how many bars do you have left when you get to work and home?.. Perhaps you just used a significant number of the cycles alloted to the battery. This might not be a high temperature issue but just regular tear&wear

A "cycle" doesn't mean anything here unless you are taking it from 100% to turtle. Partial cycles just don't directly relate. It could take 4 50% cycles to equal the wear of 1 100% cycle. It could take 2 70% cycles to equal 1 100% cycle.

Either way - as we all know TaylorSFGuy is close to 50k miles charging to 100% twice a day in Seattle and still hasn't lost a bar, though he thinks that he has lost about 10% capacity recently.

For sure, Adrian could consider using end timers for charging (though having to change timer settings would be a PITA and prone to error) and slowing down a bit (80 mph requires nearly 50% more energy per mile compared to 70 mph) and going with 80% charges to maximize battery life.

IMO - just about all the capacity loss we've seen is "normal". I simply think that either Nissan was a bit naive to think that losing 10-25% capacity after one year is acceptable to consumers when they are expecting 20% after 5 years worst case scenario.

The only way this would be acceptable for most LEAF owners would be to disclose expected range reduction up front in various climate/usage scenarios to give consumers the information they need to make an educated decision on what type of capacity loss is acceptable to them or not.

Average just does not work. The cold does not help a nit compared to the damage from heat. Count the days above 95. OC might be 10 max and Phoenix must be well over 100. Easily a tenfold difference in hot days. Probably more. Just my WAG.

Definitely. Have to remember that heat has a non-linear effect on rate of capacity loss. 1 hour at 110F might be like 3 hours at 90F which might be like 9 hours at 70F (data made up, but very roughly fits calendar life studies I've seen).

If we compare Poway (which is fairly far inland San Diego County and thus one of the warmer parts of San Diego County in the summer) to Phoenix, the biggest difference is in the average low. From Nov-Feb the avg low is very similar, but in Jul/Aug Phoenix is close to 20F warmer.

Poway's avg max temp is actually higher from Nov-Feb by a couple degrees, but from May-Aug Phoenix's avg max is 10-15F higher.

http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/vacationplanner/compare/results?from=vac_compare&clocid1=USAZ0166&clocid2=USCA0900" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a completely random data-point - Phoenix is currently 100F compared to 70F here in San Diego. That's huge!

If I use something perhaps a bit more representative of San Diego, Miramar MCAS's station and compare to Phoenix, let's look at the last 12 months of mean temperature as recorded by wunderground.

Month / Phoenix / Miramar / Difference
Jul 2012 94 70 24
Jun 2012 94 65 29
May 2012 85 63 22
Apr 2012 75 59 17
Mar 2012 66 57 9
Feb 2012 61 56 5
Jan 2012 59 57 2
Dec 2012 53 54 -1
Nov 2011 64 59 5
Oct 2011 79 66 23
Sep 2011 92 69 23
Aug 2011 99 70 29

Wow - using this data it's rare that San Diego has a mean temperature lower than Phoenix - only happens in Dec. But for 6 months of the year the Phoenix mean temp is 20-30F higher than San Diego! I have no idea how weather.com gets it's average temperature, but saying on average 6F warmer is certainly very misleading.

 

[WetEV]

Average just does not work. The cold does not help a nit compared to the damage from heat. Count the days above 95. OC might be 10 max and Phoenix must be well over 100. Easily a tenfold difference in hot days. Probably more. Just my WAG.

Definitely. Have to remember that heat has a non-linear effect on rate of capacity loss. 1 hour at 110F might be like 3 hours at 90F which might be like 9 hours at 70F (data made up, but very roughly fits calendar life studies I've seen).

Should follow the Arrhenius equation. Double lifetime for every 10 C drop in temperature as a rough first estimate.

1 hour at 110 F
like 2 hours at 92F
like 4 hours at 74F
like 8 hours at 56F
like 16 hours at 38F

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrhenius_equation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[JRP3]

When you get to the form at https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, again, it says SAFETY at the top. If you click on the Help link, it also says "Filing a Vehicle Safety Complaint... You can use the Vehicle Safety Complaint form to register a safety complaint about your vehicle."

There can be and have been SAFETY-related defects in power windows (e.g. door fires due to faulty power window switches).

Per http://www.nhtsa.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, NHTSA stands for National Highway Traffic SAFETY Administration.

I wouldn't worry about the "black helicopters" coming out of their hangers and flying over your house just yet by just sending in an inquiry.

Yes, the word safety does appear many times in the text of the web site. First and foremost this is a gov. agency for the investigation of safety related issues with cars that the manufacturer has not taken care of properly. Some would argue that not having enough miles to complete a trip is not a safety issue.

It does take in all inquiries and what are you afraid of? At worst if only 2 or 3 of us send in issues that they deem unsuitable for there mission statement , they will simply dismiss them. On the other hand, if enough send in problems, they may actually investigate. A win-win situation as we will be known as "job creators" and will see our tax dollars at work.

I doubt there'd be any black helicopters but the fact that you haven't supplied me any evidence that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) is the right place in which submit non-safety complaints tells me something.

I think it a better use of time to direct the complaints to the proper body. Federal Trade Commission (FTC) sounds like a reasonable guess. The other AZ body I mentioned seems like a decent place too, for AZ folks. We should obviously try to come up with other govt agencies and others that have the interests of consumers in mind.

Has anyone thought of actually contacting NHSTA and simply asking if they are the appropriate agency for this sort of complaint? I suppose since they seem to be accepting complaints they feel it's appropriate, but a written confirmation should be easy to get.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

So Tick Tock's car has 2 bars missing sitting in temps roughly ambient to 100º considering OAT and environmental conditions.

his car goes to Casa Grande, sits inside an air conditioned test center at say 70° for 4-5 days long enough for the temperature adjustment to kick in and he gains back just enough capacity to get his two missing bars.

now, guessing it will probably take 3-5 days, but if his bars disappear again, then we can roughly correlate how much is temporary loss due to Summer. which means the LEAF's capacity will only be fully accessible each Spring and Fall?

 

[RegGuheert]

now, guessing it will probably take 3-5 days, but if his bars disappear again, then we can roughly correlate how much is temporary loss due to Summer. which means the LEAF's capacity will only be fully accessible each Spring and Fall?

Agreed. And it sounds like the number is around 10% for Phoenix temperatures if this plays out as you suggest.

Now if TickTock's bars do not redisappear, then who knows...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

now, guessing it will probably take 3-5 days, but if his bars disappear again, then we can roughly correlate how much is temporary loss due to Summer. which means the LEAF's capacity will only be fully accessible each Spring and Fall?

Agreed. And it sounds like the number is around 10% for Phoenix temperatures if this plays out as you suggest.

Now if TickTock's bars do not redisappear, then who knows...

well, i think if they had replaced any modules, they would have mentioned it. i think closely monitoring the time frame of any change in capacity is the key here. i am pretty sure it would take at least 48-72 hours for any temperature related change since this would allow for heating caused by charging, temporary heat spikes from a hot parking lot etc. may also explain why any personal efforts to cool the pack have not resulted in any measurable changes.

 

[vegastar]

I think we will know in a few hours as Tick Tock discharged his pack to turtle last night, so when he charges the pack to 100% we can check the used energy from the wall.

 

[Tajim]

Hello, as a long time lurker, first time poster, I am very concerned about this issue. I bought my leaf in Feb of this year. It was a 2011 demo with 400 miles on it. I live in South Florida. After reading these post I have to imagine that it is a matter of time (soon) that I will have the same loss as everybody else. I still have full bars at 100% charge, but now only get 9 bars at 80%. Only 5000 miles on the car.
The thing is I do really like the car. Sad. I will have to trade it in soon as I do not want to be stuck with a Yugo. I thought Nissan was a good car manufacturer, so I bought it. First Nissan I ever owned. Will probably be the last. What does everybody think of the Volt?

 

[nogajim]

I think we will know in a few hours as Tick Tock discharged his pack to turtle last night, so when he charges the pack to 100% we can check the used energy from the wall.

Could somebody go wake him up? :lol:

 

[TickTock]

Curious. My new 100% charge did reach a higher gid count by 6% (now 231 vs 217 before) however, I still drew almost exactly the same charge from the wall for a turtle to 100% charge (20.8kWh). I'll check if the logs offer any explanation later today. Still 12 capacity bars.

 

[shrink]

So Tick Tock's car has 2 bars missing sitting in temps roughly ambient to 100º considering OAT and environmental conditions.

his car goes to Casa Grande, sits inside an air conditioned test center at say 70° for 4-5 days long enough for the temperature adjustment to kick in and he gains back just enough capacity to get his two missing bars.

now, guessing it will probably take 3-5 days, but if his bars disappear again, then we can roughly correlate how much is temporary loss due to Summer. which means the LEAF's capacity will only be fully accessible each Spring and Fall?

I don't think any conclusions can be made regardless of what happens with TickTock's car. Opposum/azdre's car and Scott's car were presumably subject to the same conditions and testing. Those cars have not regained any capacity bars and from what has been posted, range on those cars remains significantly reduced.

The other known 3 bar loss owner, username "no octane" or something like that, was posting here but stopped. It's be nice to hear from that owner.

We will really know nothing until Nissan's official study results are released. At that point, I'm sure there will be another great debate.

 

[Herm]

What does everybody think of the Volt?

The Volt is a very nice premium compact, and you can get incredible lease deals on it now.. but for all we know they may suffer from battery degradation just as bad as a Leaf.. probably not. Volt does not have a FRICKIN huge temperature and battery degradation meter on the dash.

Will Nissan dare remove the degradation gage from the dash in the 2013 Leaf?

Regarding your Leaf, you can minimize the heat degradation by only charging to 100% just before you drive it.. never let it sit at 100%

 

[Pipcecil]

Hello, as a long time lurker, first time poster, I am very concerned about this issue. I bought my leaf in Feb of this year. It was a 2011 demo with 400 miles on it. I live in South Florida. After reading these post I have to imagine that it is a matter of time (soon) that I will have the same loss as everybody else. I still have full bars at 100% charge, but now only get 9 bars at 80%. Only 5000 miles on the car.
The thing is I do really like the car. Sad. I will have to trade it in soon as I do not want to be stuck with a Yugo. I thought Nissan was a good car manufacturer, so I bought it. First Nissan I ever owned. Will probably be the last. What does everybody think of the Volt?

I have a volt and a leaf, and if you dismiss the smaller car size, the increase in cost, and the slightly lower battery range (with potential to use gas), I think the Volt is superior to the Leaf. If those top three items mean nothing (or very little) to you get a Volt, seriously. The battery range is higher than estimate (EPA says 35, we get 48-53) compared to the Leaf (EPA says 73, we got 84 on new battery - thats to zero) - both are driven the same way (mostly highway).