Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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Another precipitious drop on my GOM this morning at 100% charge, and the previous two have happened days before my next bar, so bar 3 will likely be gone any day now. My GOM is only reading 67 miles at 100%.

The problem with reduced range is that I have, for the first time, been using QC's because I just can't make the same trips I could before and I'm running short on juice. As someone pointed out earlier, reduced range means more frequent charging, and the higher likelihood that we will need to use QC's just to make it home, so my third bar looks to be dropping much faster than my second.
 
Stanton said:
waidy said:
gosashi said:
Dear All Leaf owner in US, I'm Leaf owner in Hong Kong, and my Leaf battery capacity has been drop down to 11 bar yesterday.
Sorry to hear about your battery capacity lost. 6 temperature bars is not as bad. I believe the cause of your battery problem may be perhaps due to the high humidity. I grew up in Hong Kong and I know how humid Hong Kong is. The terminals may have some rusts built up. Would you be able to convince the Hong Kong Nissan service personnel to "check and clean"?

I think you may have missed the fact that he's running close to a 2000 mile/month clip, which will result in about 2 year's worth of driving (and more importantly battery pack cycling--he charges A LOT) in a year's time. I would hope to be (only) down one bar by the time I hit 20k miles or so. There are so many variables involved :geek:


Running 100km / 63 miles per day is because go to work, in Hong Kong maybe a lot, but in other country, drive around 40-60 min to work is normal, Nissan mention the warranty is 8 years or 100000km, for me if the car need to replace whole battery after 7-8 years, I have no doubt to do that, but now seems to fast for the capacity drop.
 
Stanton said:
waidy said:
gosashi said:
Dear All Leaf owner in US, I'm Leaf owner in Hong Kong, and my Leaf battery capacity has been drop down to 11 bar yesterday.
Sorry to hear about your battery capacity lost. 6 temperature bars is not as bad. I believe the cause of your battery problem may be perhaps due to the high humidity. I grew up in Hong Kong and I know how humid Hong Kong is. The terminals may have some rusts built up. Would you be able to convince the Hong Kong Nissan service personnel to "check and clean"?
I think you may have missed the fact that he's running close to a 2000 mile/month clip, which will result in about 2 year's worth of driving (and more importantly battery pack cycling--he charges A LOT) in a year's time. I would hope to be (only) down one bar by the time I hit 20k miles or so. There are so many variables involved :geek:
Thanks for pointing this out. I am not an expert. My knowledge is only based on my EV driving experiences. I have been driving EVs for over 10 years and what I noticed and from my reading is that heat and humidity are MAJOR contributors to battery health. Age and usage are also factors but not as much as heat and humidity (IMHO). Charging to 100% is OK as long as you use it right away (in 10-15 minutes after 100% charging). Leaving 100% and let it discharge is NO good to the battery. To avoid heating up the battery, I always let it cools down before charging (of course, that is if I don't have to use it right away). The fastest you charge the more heat you apply to the battery. I mostly use 120V (L1) charging at home to avoid giving more heat to the battery. My method of charging is only applied to times when I don't have to use it right away. My 2002 Rav4-EV still achieves 120 miles range.
 
I'm sure humidity has nothing to do with it, the pack is sealed and I bet Nissan is using connectors that do not corrode easily.. they should know by now how to do that, we are not talking about Lucas here :)
 
I believe humid air has a considerably higher specific heat, it doesn't just feel hotter, it literally is denser and holds more BTU's. It would make sense that higher humidity accelerates battery degradation at a given temp. there is some interesting reading out there on enthalpy, specific heat and humidity, though I doubt this is a big factor in what we are seeing, particularly in Phoenix where average daily relative humidity is reported to be 37%.

Herm said:
I'm sure humidity has nothing to do with it, the pack is sealed and I bet Nissan is using connectors that do not corrode easily.. they should know by now how to do that, we are not talking about Lucas here :)
 
GaslessInSeattle said:
I believe humid air has a considerably higher specific heat, it doesn't just feel hotter, it literally is denser and holds more BTU's. It would make sense that higher humidity accelerates battery degradation at a given temp. there is some interesting reading out there on enthalpy, specific heat and humidity, though I doubt this is a big factor in what we are seeing, particularly in Phoenix where average daily relative humidity is reported to be 37%.

Herm said:
I'm sure humidity has nothing to do with it, the pack is sealed and I bet Nissan is using connectors that do not corrode easily.. they should know by now how to do that, we are not talking about Lucas here :)
FWIW, humid air is less dense than dry air, as any pilot can tell you (hot-humid = longer take-off run)*. But humid air does have more heat capacity, as you suggest. I believe this is why cold damp places "feel" colder at a given temperature than dry places (like where I live). Water molecules can absorb a lot of heat because of multiple vibration modes, as opposed to N2 and O2. So, "denser" with regard to heat energy capacity, but not higher density the way most of us use the term.


*In case anyone is curious as to why this is so, it has to do with the molecular weight of a water molecule, 18, versus the weight of N2, 28, and O2, 32. Since each molecule takes up approximately the same space in gaseous form at a given temperature, the lighter water molecules make air less dense.
 
dgpcolorado said:
GaslessInSeattle said:
I believe humid air has a considerably higher specific heat, it doesn't just feel hotter, it literally is denser and holds more BTU's. It would make sense that higher humidity accelerates battery degradation at a given temp. there is some interesting reading out there on enthalpy, specific heat and humidity, though I doubt this is a big factor in what we are seeing, particularly in Phoenix where average daily relative humidity is reported to be 37%.

Herm said:
I'm sure humidity has nothing to do with it, the pack is sealed and I bet Nissan is using connectors that do not corrode easily.. they should know by now how to do that, we are not talking about Lucas here :)
FWIW, humid air is less dense than dry air, as any pilot can tell you (hot-humid = longer take-off run)*. But humid air does hold more heat, as you suggest. I believe this is why cold damp places "feel" colder at a given temperature than dry places (like where I live). Water molecules can absorb a lot of heat because of multiple vibration modes, as opposed to N2 and O2.


*In case anyone is curious as to why this is so, it has to do with the molecular weight of a water molecule, 18, versus the weight of N2, 28, and O2, 32. Since each molecule takes up approximately the same space in gaseous form at a given temperature, the lighter water molecules make air less dense.

I had not thought about humid air having lower mass density but it makes sense. A molecule of nitrogen is 28 amu, oxygen is 32 amu and add in water at 18 amu but it's saturation value is about 0.4 psi at 75F so it's not a huge factor.
 
It is correct that humid air is less dense than dry air.

And, for all practical purposes, it is also correct that humidity has very little to do with the LEAF's battery temperature.

For humidity to play a role in temperature regulation, you either have to have condensation or evaporation. It's the latent heat involved in the phase change of water vapor to liquid and back again that transfers heat between an object and the air.

Just think about how often water vapor is likely to condense on the LEAF's battery pack. The battery would not only have to be cooler than the air temperature, but cooler than the dew point, as well. Even in tropical climates, the dew point is very rarely above 80F, so condensation isn't going to be a big issue. (Just for reference… If water condenses on an object, it will transfer heat to the object.)

Also consider how often liquid water is likely to evaporate off of the LEAF's battery pack. It would have to be wet, first. Might be a factor if you were driving in the rain, but that’s about it. (Evaporation of water will remove heat from an object.)
 
I also agree that humidity probably has nothing to do with any capacity loss, and certainly there is no "rust" involved since all terminals and connections should be copper or aluminum, possibly tinned.
 
You're absolutely right, in that I should not have included political stuff here. Since I have Tea Party family members who think all EV's are from the devil Obama, it seemed easy to say. Again, back to the directing all the "hate" for a positive outcome; that Nissan actively identifies the problem with the battery, and doesn't stay in one speed, blaming the consumer for their product's shortcomings.[/quote]

I am working on those that just don't get why EV's are a great thing one partially closed mind at a time. Right there with you on that.
 
Got the following graph from The U.S. Dept of energy at this link:

http://search.nrel.gov/cs.html?url=http%3A//www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2011/electrochemical_storage/es110_smith_2011_p.pdf&charset=utf-8&qt=life+trade+off+analysis&col=eren&n=1&la=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I added the Casa Grande test line to the graph below. Normal, expected capacity loss??? I'll let you be the judge.

I am posting the image url here in case the photos does not load in my post.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38343689@N02/7927151004/

d5uHPj
 
spooka said:
Got the following graph from The U.S. Dept of energy at this link:

http://search.nrel.gov/cs.html?url=http%3A//www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2011/electrochemical_storage/es110_smith_2011_p.pdf&charset=utf-8&qt=life+trade+off+analysis&col=eren&n=1&la=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I added the Casa Grande test line to the graph below. Normal, expected capacity loss??? I'll let you be the judge.

I am posting the image url here in case the photos does not load in my post.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38343689@N02/7927151004/

d5uHPj

Interesting. Was surprised that thermal management didn't work better. After 10 years it is only 10% better (80% versus 70%) for Phoenix driving conditions. Personally, if I have 70% in 10 years, I will be happy and will say Nissan made the right call. Of course they are predicting 3 years to read -15% instead of the 1 year we are seeing...
 
TickTock said:
Interesting. Was surprised that thermal management didn't work better. After 10 years it is only 10% better (80% versus 70%) for Phoenix driving conditions. Personally, if I have 70% in 10 years, I will be happy and will say Nissan made the right call. Of course they are predicting 3 years to read -15% instead of the 1 year we are seeing...
Keep in mind that they're testing a different battery (Li-ion graphite/nickelate) under different usage conditions (PHEV) that what we're using...

A better way to look at it is time to a specific capacity - say time to 85% capacity - in Phoenix, liquid cooling doubles calendar life (6 years from 3 years) compared to no cooling. Or one can move to Minneapolis where batteries are also expected to have double the calendar life compared to Phoenix.
 
spooka said:
Got the following graph from The U.S. Dept of energy at this link:

http://search.nrel.gov/cs.html?url=http%3A//www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2011/electrochemical_storage/es110_smith_2011_p.pdf&charset=utf-8&qt=life+trade+off+analysis&col=eren&n=1&la=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I added the Casa Grande test line to the graph below. Normal, expected capacity loss??? I'll let you be the judge.

I am posting the image url here in case the photos does not load in my post.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38343689@N02/7927151004/

d5uHPj

There are quite a few reasons you would not expect the the Casa Grande test cars to match the NREL study results.

First, the C. G. test cars were selected for study precisely because they were outliers from what most Phoenix LEAFs were experiencing, at least as indicated by those cars accelerated capacity bar losses.

It is possible that their unusual rate of capacity loss, up to "15%", is what is often reported, IIRC, is due in part to factors unrelated to battery use by the LEAF's drivers, such as reduced battery capacity at delivery, due to poor quality control at the factory, or poor battery care prior to delivery, such as long periods of 100% charge at high temperatures.

This accelerated degradation of the CS test group may also be accounted for largely or in part, by LEAF use habits of the five test vehicles outside of the controlled study, a few of which may have been:

Miles driven per day in the NREL study is 33 miles, in two trips. Obviously, many or all of the CS LEAFs frequently exceeded this range, with increased battery cycling required to drive up to twice the ~12,000 miles per year of the study, and using a higher percentage (far higher for the C.G. drivers with long commutes) of the total battery capacity on each day of driving.

Ambient temperatures for the NREL study apparently did not take into account the "garage heating effect", the propensity for EV drivers to maintain higher battery temperatures, by parking their cars overnight in garages, at higher-than-ambient temperatures. Of course, this would be expected to accelerate heat-related capacity loss in batteries, relative to those EVs that cooled their battery packs at night, with either ATM use, or space cooling.

The study apparently did not account for the heating effects (and possibly other degradation effects) of fast charging, which at least some of the C. S. test LEAFs, may have used frequently.

A big question I still have about the NREL study, is the capacity level and charging habits assumed.

If I understand correctly, it looks to me like the study reports use of 54% of battery capacity, to drive that 33 daily miles?

So, basically, they tested a Volt sized battery pack, with the daily driving range limited to the optimum Volt-range commute?

Obviously, if the C.G. LEAF drivers had limited their daily driving range to 33 miles, limited their their battery packs' charge to ~ten bars, and only discharged them to to ~four bars, and then only recharged them back up to ~ten bars, immediately before driving again, on every day of their ownership, we might expect them now to have very different capacity bar loss reports.
 
Via Drees

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan.
Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.
 
edatoakrun said:
Obviously, if the C.G. LEAF drivers had limited their daily driving range to 33 miles, limited their their battery packs' charge to ~ten bars, and only discharged them to to ~four bars, and then only recharged them back up to ~ten bars, immediately before driving again, on every day of their ownership, we might expect them now to have very different capacity bar loss reports.

It would even be different if Nissan had disclosed this to save battery life in hot climates.
 
scottf200 said:
Via Drees

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan.
Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

Well that pretty much is the last straw.
It is new technology and bugs are to be expected. But Nissan's responses to the issue has convinced me I will never be buying any of their vehicles.
 
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