Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[kmp647]

reprogramming the capacity display wont really fix anything but the resale value

if the car craps out after 50 miles its usefulness is very limited.

now if both the capacity gauge and the charge remaining bars are reprogrammed and range is somehow restored because the gauges were faulty/???

but that seems very unlikely given many can see SOC data on the batteries and it matches up with the reduced range

am I correct in my thinking?

 

[DaveEV]

Well that pretty much is the last straw.
It is new technology and bugs are to be expected. But Nissan's responses to the issue has convinced me I will never be buying any of their vehicles.

To be fair - I have only seen one person document actual range from 100% to turtle - TickTock and he documented significantly less degradation than what the battery capacity gauge indicated.

That said - it was still a lot of degradation - a lot more than I would be happy with after the amount of time/miles he put on his car.

 

[mwalsh]

but that seems very unlikely given many can see SOC data on the batteries and it matches up with the reduced range

am I correct in my thinking?

It would be awesome if that were to be true. All we can see with respect to SOC data is what the car is telling us via the CAN-BUS. That data could be the same being interpreted by the car for it's capacity and GOM readings, and thus equally as defective.

 

[TickTock]

TickTock are you still at 12 capacity bars, according to your GID count you should be at 11?

Yes, I am still at 12. I am also surprised I haven't re-lost a bar yet.

As a matter of interest, what is your Gid count?

208 this morning (all-time low for 100%).

 

[edatoakrun]

...Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, I think Nissan probably does have a "battery problem", at least in meeting some LEAF owners' unrealistic (IMO) expectations of battery capacity over time under severe conditions of use.

But I think Nissan may have a problem larger than just the "battery level display", since, if all dash and Carwings energy information is distorted by gid variability, Nissan is facing a real PR problem in deciding just how to present the Casa Grande test results, and any "fix" it proposes.

edatoakrun:

Ever since TickTock first suggested the topic of gid variability, the implications of his observations have been setting in.



TickTock:

"1 gid *mostly* equals 80Wh"


http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9689" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If “gids” do reflect a variable amount of Wh, and they are the values used by the LEAF to calculate kWh use, then the capacity bar displays, dash and nav screen displays of m/kWh, as well as the Carwings calculations based on these same “gid” values, might be expected to be incorrect as well.

I now believe that this quite possibly could be be the case.

I have been noticing an unexplained increase in my dash, nav Screen, and Carwings m/kWh results for a few months now, not only on this test trip, but on other trips, and my long term m/kWh averages.

...I think that my range tests may indicate that whatever method my LEAF uses to calculate kWh, is variable, and has been significantly understating the recent amounts of kWh use, and has probably increasingly inflated all my m/kWh reports, from the dash, nav screen, and CW.

And of course, this could reflect with Tick Tocks observations of variable “gid” Wh values. Gids with higher Wh content could lower the calculated kWh numbers, and raise all the m/kWh results.

Maybe this is what I am seeing, from yesterdays range test. I tried to replicate as accurately as possible, my earliest range test,of almost a year, and almost 10,000 miles ago, to test this hypothesis.

I chose a day with very close to the original temperature condition, and drove the exact same route over the first 87 miles of the trip, using the same mode (eco) and used my original trip logs to closely replicate the same elapsed times for each of the three (same distance) legs of the trip.

The results from 8/30/12 were:

97.3 miles to VLB, 98.9 miles in total, by the odometer.

CW: 96.5 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 5.7 m/kWh, 16.8 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW.

Compare this test with my first test on 9/7/11:

91.5 miles to VLB, 93.4 in total, by the odometer

CW: 91.1 (~2.5% under-report) total miles, at 4.9 m/kWh, 18.7 kWh used from 100% to about the same capacity level, slightly past VLBW....

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[RegGuheert]

208 this morning (all-time low for 100%).

208/281=74% :shock:

It sure seems like you shouldn't be showing 12 bars under those circumstances!

 

[dsh]

Tick Tock,

I find it unacceptable for Nissan to take your car for several days, make adjustements to your Battery Pack to get 12 Capacity Bars again and offer no explanation on what or how they did it.

Anyway, Can you demand an explanation on how they got your 2 capacity bars back?

TickTock are you still at 12 capacity bars, according to your GID count you should be at 11?

Yes, I am still at 12. I am also surprised I haven't re-lost a bar yet.

 

[Stoaty]

208 this morning (all-time low for 100%).

208/281=74% :shock:

It sure seems like you shouldn't be showing 12 bars under those circumstances!

Perhas the "fix" was to set his Leaf so that it always shows 12 capacity bars, no matter how low the battery capacity. Problem solved!

 

[dsh]

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html
RE: Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display."We don't have a battery problem," he says

...If the problem is a faulty battery level display..HOW DO WE GET FIXED??

Via Drees

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan.

Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

 

[mwalsh]

...If the problem is a faulty battery level display..HOW DO WE GET FIXED??

Hear! Hear!

 

[edatoakrun]

="TickTock"

Yes, I am still at 12. I am also surprised I haven't re-lost a bar yet...

(gid count of) ...208 this morning (all-time low for 100%).

How about your calculated kWh capacity, "0 to 100 wall"?

I don't see much of a trend there, in your previous reports, post Casa Grande:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[FairwoodRed]

Via Drees

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan.

Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

F***!!!

Nissan, you really know how to kill enthusiasm for your company. Maybe there is a problem with the display, but that has nothing to do with reduced actual driving range. Not acknowledging the reduced range concerns is a polite way to tell owners to pound sand. Well, s**** you too!!! Nissan no longer gets the benefit of the doubt. They have to prove their side and that the owners will be taken care of.

I don’t have excessive loss yet and I hope it stays reasonable. Cause I know that I can no longer count on Nissan to do the right thing. I don’t care about whatever legalese is in their warranty. A company worth my business and recommendations will fix products that don’t meet the expectations they set. With this comment I’m anti-Nissan.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Perhas the "fix" was to set his Leaf so that it always shows 12 capacity bars, no matter how low the battery capacity. Problem solved!

Disappointing, but not unexpected. I've never held out much hope of anything productive coming out of Nissan regarding this issue, and I expected the same shoveling of sh*t that any corporation does these days.

What you really need is a sharp law firm that specializes (and has a successful record) in these types of automotive class action suits. Even that won't fix the cars, because they are NEVER going to be fixed.

I would like to think BMW would do a better job in the same situation, but I'm not sure.

 

[Leafer77]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Not sure how to add this to the spreadsheet:

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Environment:

- San Diego Coastal and Inland climate (60's - 90's).

Car Charging info:

- 1 month of 100% charging via L2, thereafter 80% L2.
- (5/31 - 2/1) Nightly charge, except weekends where it typically charged just once for the entire weekend.
- (2/2 - Present) Charge twice a day 80% L2. Night and when I arrive to work.
- Garaged at home and uncovered at work.

MISC Info:

- Turtled once, but made it to an outlet.
- Mostly highway driving 55mph - 65mph.
- 4.5 KWH
- Manufactured Date: 4/11

 

[Stoaty]

I lost my first bar. I expected some degradation in capacity, so my driving habits have not been impacted. I did report this issue to the Nissan dealer and was told this is expected.

Car Details:

Silver Nissan Leaf 2011
Date car purchased: 5/31/2011
Date bar disappeared: 8/24/2012
Mile's when bar disappeared: 21,085

Sorry to hear about your bar loss. Added to Wiki. To complete your entry, we just need:

--date of manufacture (drivers door frame)
--nissan case number
--date reported to Nissan

Thanks.

 

[jlsoaz]

...
My preference would be if a new battery chemistry could be developed that is less sensitive to heat (and cold). As it is I'm pretty impressed at how little heat the current battery generates. Has anyone heard about any such chemistry that has at least reached the lab testing stage?

I have seen strong cycle life claims about the Toshiba SCIB (Super Charge Ion) Battery (Honda Fit and I don't know if used in some of the Mitsubishis?), but I don't know if these include a stronger resistance to loss of capacity due to heat.
http://www.scib.jp/en/product/detail.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2011_11/pr1701.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html
RE: Palmer also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the Leaf. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display."We don't have a battery problem," he says

...If the problem is a faulty battery level display..HOW DO WE GET FIXED??

Via Drees
September 4, 2012 article: http://canberratimes.drive.com.au/motor-news/nissan-to-step-up-ev-production-20120904-25b60.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan. <snip>

They also pointed out "owners in America" so I guess that means other countries are not having an issue or are not complaining.

I suspect in the future any software update that LEAF owners get will get this battery level display change as part of it. (ie. it will be a prerequisite to getting another other software update).

 

[TonyWilliams]

They also pointed out "owners in America" so I guess that means other countries are not having an issue or are not complaining.

We have one from Hong Kong. But, I suspect that there's not as many LEAFs in any other country except Japan. And they likely won't have much problem, because it doesn't get that hot there. So, smaller countries, likely speaking different languages than english, are not likely to be reporting here.

But then, how many other places where they sell LEAF are as hot as Phoenix? The rest of the cars will, of course, degrade, just not in the volume of Phoenix and Texas.

 

[JeremyW]

I added the Casa Grande test line to the graph below. Normal, expected capacity loss??? I'll let you be the judge.

I am posting the image url here in case the photos does not load in my post.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38343689@N02/7927151004/

The loss is not gradual at all, your honor.

Sadly, I fear that is the only option that Nissan will listen to. :|

Jeremy

 

[TomT]

And the need to do so is why Nissan has likely lost me permanently as a customer... After my lease is up, I expect I'll go elsewhere.

The loss is not gradual at all, your honor.

Sadly, I fear that is the only option that Nissan will listen to. :|

Jeremy