Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[Stoaty]

Sadly, I've joined the 1 bar lost club today. We've driven the LEAF about 19,000 miles during the 20 months we've owned it. Always have charged to 100%, 10 months exclusively on L1 and then another 10 months exclusively on L2. Car is garaged 90% of the time.

My range hubris decreased after the firmware update at the beginning of the year and has shrunk even more now.

Sorry to hear about your bar loss. Added to Wiki. To complete your entry we still need:

--last 5 digits of VIN
--date of manufacture (drivers door frame)
--case number from Nissan
--date of report to Nissan

Thanks.

 

[DaveEV]

But I thought that we're just discussing some basic and simple test for an average Joe owner to do.

Easy version:

1. Drain battery to VLBW or turtle either by driving or running heater on max. Personally - I don't trust the LBW warning on aged packs - it appears that the warning is coming on early.
2. Measure energy it takes to charge to 100% using desired measuring device (For example, Blink EVSE, TED or recent site advertiser EKM Metering - not sure if I'd trust a Kill-A-Watt for the duration it takes to charge on 120V).
3. Repeat another time or two to make sure you reading are accurate.

Compare results to other cars in various climates. Bonus points for taking other data points - elapsed time, car's estimated time to charge on L1/L2, GID meter readings, charge to 80% first, then time/measure 80-100% charge details, etc.

We can't trust the gauges in the car. We already know that GIDs vary with temperature and that TickTock measured less capacity loss than what his capacity gauge read. There's a reason why the EPA ignores any instrumentation and runs their tests using a dyno until the car can't maintain speed any more while measuring energy used to charge the car using an external meter.

 

[azdre]

It doesn't matter how much capacity or range is available after LBW, LBW means get to a charging station very soon. I don't want to be dipping into that range often. It's like the low gas warning in an ICE, I was never one to see exactly how close to empty I could get, and I know I'm not the only one.

LBW does not appear to be coming on early, it always comes on with 8-9 miles on the GOM, VLBW with about 4 miles.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can somebody get me in contact with Scott Y. before he turns in his car on Sept 15?

TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com
858-245-8217

 

[DaveEV]

It doesn't matter how much capacity or range is available after LBW.

It matters very much if the gauges are triggering LBW prematurely.

If you're suffering from range anxiety, pull into the garage with LBW, then run the heater on max until you get VLBW or even better, turtle. Keep the garage open and well ventilated to avoid any extra heat buildup.

With the heater pulling 5 kW, it should take well less than an hour to get down to a low VLBW or lower. Then charge it to 100% and measure how much energy goes into the car from the wall.

If one is to believe the gauges in your car and you drove 48 mi @ 4.5 mi/kWh to LBW, that would indicate that you used 10.7 kWh from the pack to LBW.

If we assume that the available capacity at LBW stays constant (coming on at ~49 GIDs or ~3.4 kWh remaining, has anyone confirmed this on a car that has lost at least 1 bar?), that would indicate that you have 14 kWh usable in your battery pack or over 40% capacity loss and have lost 6 capacity bars. If LBW comes on at 17% SOC - then you have even less usable - less than 13 kWh.

Sorry, but I'm not buyin' it. I'm not saying you don't have capacity loss - I'm just saying that you don't have as much as you think you do. Andy Palmer is right - the gauges are lying.

 

[azdre]

I'm saying that I don't care if it's software, bad gauges, or actual capacity loss. I'm not going to use anything that's very far below LBW. I fully believe that capacity loss is only part of the issue, it just doesn't matter. Whatever the issue, it needs to be fixed because as far as the car tells me, I can't go much farther than 50-55 miles and I'm very close to having to buy a new car.

 

[DaveEV]

I'm saying that I don't care if it's software, bad gauges, or actual capacity loss. I'm not going to use anything that's very far below LBW. I fully believe that capacity loss is only part of the issue, it just doesn't matter. Whatever the issue, it needs to be fixed because as far as the car tells me, I can't go much farther than 50-55 miles and I'm very close to having to buy a new car.

If you are happy not knowing how much capacity actually remains usable and prefer to rely on the gauges until Nissan fixes it - that is up to you. You could have another 20+ miles left in your car when you hit LBW that you are not using. Or you might not. We may never know.

But that doesn't help us collect any information on exactly how much capacity remains in the battery pack of LEAFs like yours which was the point of my post which you responded to.

It's really easy to do if you have a Blink as I outlined above.

 

[opossum]

Can somebody get me in contact with Scott Y. before he turns in his car on Sept 15?

TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com
858-245-8217

Will do. I'll shoot him a text tomorrow after the sun cometh up.

 

[RegGuheert]

You could have another 20+ miles left in your car when you hit LBW that you are not using. Or you might not. We may never know.

It seems to me there is just one set of instruments in the LEAF and it controls all access to the battery. Any inaccuracies in measuring voltage or current will result in *different* access to the amount of battery capacity in the car.

I am again wondering if the voltage that many here read on their GIDmeters is not raw voltage but rather is somehow adjusted upward as temperature rises, this restricting access to the top end of the battery capacity.

As you said, we may never know.

 

[edatoakrun]

..Sorry, but I'm not buyin' it. I'm not saying you don't have capacity loss - I'm just saying that you don't have as much as you think you do. Andy Palmer is right - the gauges are lying.

And as I have observed in my LEAF, I believe the "gauges are lying", the m/kWh from the dash, nav screen, as well as the carwings compilations which mirror them, for me as well, even though I have lost no capacity bars.

="drees"

...We already know that GIDs vary with temperature and that TickTock measured less capacity loss than what his capacity gauge read...

Which is why I think that many with gid meters may be mistaken in their conviction that gid meters can be depended on to determine total battery capacity, much less actual battery "degradation".

IMO, It's sort of pathetic to hear of so many LEAF drivers leaving their cars at home, and driving their ICEVs on hot days, or even worse, selling or trading in their LEAFs, just because they have seen a dropping gid count.

 

[Stanton]

My range hubris decreased after the firmware update at the beginning of the year and has shrunk even more now.

I've asked before but seen no answer: what version of firmware is this that people are complaining about? I don't want to get the update if it's problematic, especially since I'm happy with my GOM as is. I'm due for my annual battery check, etc. this month.

 

[omkar]

Sorry to hear about your bar loss. Added to Wiki. To complete your entry we still need:

--last 5 digits of VIN
--date of manufacture (drivers door frame)
--case number from Nissan
--date of report to Nissan

Thanks.

Thank you for doing this Stoaty. Here's the info:
last 5: 00222
date of manufacture: 11/10
case #: 9354015
date of report to Nissan: 9/6/2012

 

[KJD]

According to Tony's range charge LBW will happen at 49 GID's and that is 17.4% SOC.
It is also conventional wisdom that deep discharges will SHORTEN battery life.

If I want to do non-destructive range testing why not do 100% to LBW ?

I'm saying that I don't care if it's software, bad gauges, or actual capacity loss. I'm not going to use anything that's very far below LBW. I fully believe that capacity loss is only part of the issue, it just doesn't matter. Whatever the issue, it needs to be fixed because as far as the car tells me, I can't go much farther than 50-55 miles and I'm very close to having to buy a new car.

If you are happy not knowing how much capacity actually remains usable and prefer to rely on the gauges until Nissan fixes it - that is up to you. You could have another 20+ miles left in your car when you hit LBW that you are not using. Or you might not. We may never know.
But that doesn't help us collect any information on exactly how much capacity remains in the battery pack of LEAFs like yours which was the point of my post which you responded to.
It's really easy to do if you have a Blink as I outlined above.

 

[DaveEV]

According to Tony's range charge LBW will happen at 49 GID's and that is 17.4% SOC.

Tony's chart is based on a 12-bar car. I don't recall anyone checking when LBW, VLBW and turtle show up on a 11 bar or less car.

It is also conventional wisdom that deep discharges will SHORTEN battery life.

If I want to do non-destructive range testing why not do 100% to LBW ?

You make it sound like taking the battery down to VLBW or less a couple times is going to cause the battery to implode. Just a couple times to collect some data. Besides - it's not like these cars aren't already imploding regardless. Besides - this will lower the average SOC which should improve calendar life.

What's up with the huge aversion to collecting data here??? It's as if people would rather keep their blinders on instead of seeing the light.

 

[Stoaty]

Which is why I think that many with gid meters may be mistaken in their conviction that gid meters can be depended on to determine total battery capacity, much less actual battery "degradation".

IMO, It's sort of pathetic to hear of so many LEAF drivers leaving their cars at home, and driving their ICEVs on hot days, or even worse, selling or trading in their LEAFs, just because they have seen a dropping gid count.

I am not leaving my Leaf at home on hot days due to dropping Gid count. I am leaving it at home because hot weather has been shown to greatly accelerate capacity loss, and Nissan has said "this is normal". Remember that of the 7 Leafs tested at Casa Grande, the best one had still lost 14% of capacity. If we ever hear something different from Nissan officially, I may change my behavior. However, right now I am just protecting my investment with a few weeks of driving my ICE when temperatures are above 95 degrees.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Can somebody get me in contact with Scott Y. before he turns in his car on Sept 15?

TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com
858-245-8217

Will do. I'll shoot him a text tomorrow after the sun cometh up.

Please post replies to this thread

I'd like to meet up with as many of these affected cars on SATURDAY, SEPT 15, 2012, in Phoenix. That's the day Scott has to turn in his car, and it has the most degradation "displayed".

You guys can pick a location. The plan would be to determine the range of the cars. Then, after the range test, have each car tested at the Nissan dealer with a battery test. The goal is for their official test to say what we all know it will say; "All is well" with 5 stars.

The range test is simple, but detailed. We need to do the test very early in the morning, and the batteries need to been at a stable temperature. Tests need to be conducted with the A/C off. I would prefer that every car had a Gidmeter, but we can use one Gidmeter to measure start and finish. All cars with GPS is preferred. We only need speed, time and distance from the GPS.

I'd like to see TickTock, Scott, and any car with 2, 3, or 4 (or more) capacity bars missing. Entire test should be 2 hours, plus driving it to the Nissan dealer for the post test. Cars need to be fully charged and prestaged at the test site the evening before. Preselected mostly level course, or maybe Nissan will let us use the test track!!!! (that's a joke

Let's stop guessing. I'll fly in Friday night. We could charge each car after all the events with the same Blink (or other charger that has kWh measuring capability) to get a measure of the fill-up, too.

 

[dsh]

Tony,

Good idea, but do you think a Nissan Dealer will do a battery test by just showing up? I see issues with getting an appointment on a Saturday morning, especially if it is not the 1 or 2 year check up.

Can somebody get me in contact with Scott Y. before he turns in his car on Sept 15?

TonyWilliams -at- LoveMyLEAF -dot- com
858-245-8217

Will do. I'll shoot him a text tomorrow after the sun cometh up.

I'd like to meet up with as many of these affected cars on SATURDAY, SEPT 15, 2012, in Phoenix. That's the day Scott has to turn in his car, and it has the most degradation "displayed".

You guys can pick a location. The plan would be to determine the range of the cars. Then, after the range test, have each car tested at the Nissan dealer with a battery test. The goal is for their official test to say what we all know it will say; "All is well" with 5 stars.

The range test is simple, but detailed. We need to do the test very early in the morning, and the batteries need to been at a stable temperature. Tests need to be conducted with the A/C off. I would prefer that every car had a Gidmeter, but we can use one Gidmeter to measure start and finish. All cars with GPS is preferred. We only need speed, time and distance from the GPS.

I'd like to see TickTock, Scott, and any car with 2, 3, or 4 (or more) capacity bars missing. Entire test should be 2 hours, plus driving it to the Nissan dealer for the post test. Cars need to be fully charged and prestaged at the test site the evening before. Preselected mostly level course, or maybe Nissan will let us use the test track!!!! (that's a joke

Let's stop guessing. I'll fly in Friday night. We could charge each car after all the events with the same Blink (or other charger that has kWh measuring capability) to get a measure of the fill-up, too.

 

[TonyWilliams]

..Sorry, but I'm not buyin' it. I'm not saying you don't have capacity loss - I'm just saying that you don't have as much as you think you do. Andy Palmer is right - the gauges are lying.

IMO, It's sort of pathetic to hear of so many LEAF drivers leaving their cars at home, and driving their ICEVs on hot days, or even worse, selling or trading in their LEAFs, just because they have seen a dropping gid count.

It's pathetic that somebody would have such an opinion of others who are working with the only information they have; we know heat affects ALL batteries, and it sure as heck was forecast by a WHOLE bunch of experts in 2009-2010 (before LEAF was released for sale) that this would not end well for Nissan with THIS battery design. To think otherwise is truly stinking your head in the sand. Cars in Seattle are doing great; Phoenix and Texas, not so much. You don't need a Gidmeter to figure that out.

Andy Palmer, Mark Perry, et al, are going to say ANYTHING that doesn't imply the batteries are poorly designed and not capable of handling heat. Since they didn't want the fifth seat taken up with a temperature management system, or to pay for such a system (that isn't needed everywhere, anyway) it won't be easy or cheap to add. They painted themselves in this corner.

By the way, the battery capacity meter may be bad. And the muffler bearing may need an adjustment. I don't know, or care. There no doubt in my mind that the batteries are deteriorating because of heat, Nissan knew this, and sold the cars anyway. When Tesla's Elon Musk complained about the "primitive" LEAF battery design in 2009, he also felt it would be bad for the whole EV movement, and I share that view.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony, Good idea, but do you think a Nissan Dealer will do a battery test by just showing up? I see issues with getting an appointment on a Saturday morning, especially if it is not the 1 or 2 year check up.

Please post replies to this thread

For Scott's car, make an appointment for Saturday. For other cars, any time in the follow days would be fine. We just want something that "proves" that Nissan's own test says everything was OK during our range test.

 

[EVDrive]

I like Tony's plan to collect data.

Meeting up at a bank of L2 chargers and having all the cars charge to 100% makes a lot of sense. I'm very interested to see the Gid count for each car at 100% charge and at lbw. It would be great to circle a QCer until all the cars reach lbw or vlbw. Then we could measure average capacity loss over time and miles in AZ.

Honestly, I though from the day I heard AZ was a Leaf launch market that Nissan's intention was to test how well the Leaf batteries would hold up in the extreme heat. AZ test market results don't look good at all so far.