Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[tokenride]

Hello All:

I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend

I did decide to persue to join a class action lawsuit with emphasis (from me) on battery replacment with ZERO cost. While I hate feeding the sharks(lawyers). I feel this would make fixing the problem faster for all of us with this problem.

The attorney's are asking me if I remember anyone telling me the warranty only covered the power output instead of capacity.

If my memory serves me correctly, I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.
Is that the impression most of you got?

I have put over 25k miles on my Leaf now. I dont want to go back to gas!

 

[cwerdna]

If my memory serves me correctly, I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.
Is that the impression most of you got?

Absolutely not. It's been stated over and over that it does not cover capacity. You can confirm this via the warranty booklet that came w/your car as well as the PDF (http://nissanleafwiki.com/index.php?title=File:2011-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

I've given feedback directly to Mark Perry (in person) that I wished it did. I'm definitely not the first one to ask for that.

 

[mwalsh]

Sorry to say that, no, capacity was never part of the warranty.

 

[surfingslovak]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc[/youtube]

 

[tokenride]

Sorry I did not post my question in the correct context. What I am trying to measure was your perception based on the hype of the "unprecedented warranty" that was being touted and competing with GM at the time. (i.e Carlos Tavares speech in San Jose, CA)

Since you don't really have the option of reading the entire manual until you own or lease the car, at what point did most of you know that the warranty only covered the output only and not capacity?

 

[tokenride]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DEuGU0mGWc[/youtube]

+1

 

[TonyWilliams]

According to Tony's range charge LBW will happen at 49 GID's and that is 17.4% SOC.

Tony's chart is based on a 12-bar car. I don't recall anyone checking when LBW, VLBW and turtle show up on a 11 bar or less car.

OK correct me if I am wrong but I seem to remember reading somewhere in these 340 pages that LBW happens at 49 GID's regardless of weather the car has 12 bars, 11 bars or 10 bars.

Is this correct?

When we test the Phoenix car with 4 lost capacity bars, I'll let you know. I believe it will still come on at 49 Gid for LBW.

We've already seen how some cars will display 2 fuel bars with LBW. Check out my range chart with 85% capacity.

 

[cwerdna]

Since you don't really have the option of reading the entire manual until you own or lease the car, at what point did most of you know that the warranty only covered the output only and not capacity?

Nissan puts their manuals up online at http://www.nissanusa.com/apps/techpubs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, including the warranty booklet.

I believe the manual went online even before the car was available for sale in the US. Not sure about the warranty booklet. Hopefully the people who participated in threads like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1897&start=10" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; can chime in on when the warranty information booklet became available.

(I don't own a Leaf yet, long story) I know that many folks who bought new also had to sign a very long info packet/disclaimer as part of the purchase process that also stated that "gradual" capacity loss is not covered by the warranty.

I also recall that the official Nissan Leaf web site in many different places has always stated that "gradual" capacity loss is not covered.

There's been plenty of discussion about the warranty here, in places like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2988" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[surfingslovak]

I know that many folks who bought new also had to sign a very long info packet/disclaimer as part of the purchase process that also stated that "gradual" capacity loss is not covered by the warranty.

"Were supposed to sign" might be more conservative and preferable. Tokenride, please have a look if you did sign this paper. The dealer should have given you a copy. I scanned the relevant section below.

 

[cwerdna]

I know that many folks who bought new also had to sign a very long info packet/disclaimer as part of the purchase process that also stated that "gradual" capacity loss is not covered by the warranty.

"Were supposed to sign" might be more conservative and preferable. Tokenride, please have a look if you did sign this paper. The dealer should have given you a copy. I scanned the relevant section below.

Agreed. I recall reading stories here about some folks not having received nor signing it, esp. those who bought used.

The lack of capacity warranty is exactly why I plan to lease or buy used (only if VERY cheap).

 

[ALLWATZ]

Sorry I did not post my question in the correct context. What I am trying to measure was your perception based on the hype of the "unprecedented warranty" that was being touted and competing with GM at the time. (i.e Carlos Tavares speech in San Jose, CA)

Since you don't really have the option of reading the entire manual until you own or lease the car, at what point did most of you know that the warranty only covered the output only and not capacity?

Please read page #12 of CWERDNA's link, http://nissanleafwiki.com/images/c/c3/2011-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, as it states "The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty". It's up to the lawyers to prove that your loss was neither because of "time and use" or "gradual".

 

[tokenride]

Thank you for your up front replies. All very true and sobering. I think would have still leased the car because I really wanted to be off the oil...

Sothe key question is what is "gradual loss of capacity"?

Now, if you lose a bar or tow or three, does the loss of capacity accelerate due to the added strain placed on the remaining cells?

 

[TonyWilliams]

I did decide to persue to join a class action lawsuit with emphasis (from me) on battery replacment with ZERO cost.... I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.

Good luck! I have serious doubt that there would be any disposition on this before your your car was unusable, so what is plan B?

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's up to the lawyers to prove that your loss was neither because of "time and use" or "gradual".

http://www.lexisnexis.com/lawschool/study/outlines/html/contracts/contracts08.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


§ 8.01 Approaches to Contract Intepretation

The approaches used to determine whether a writing is an integration are also employed to determine what evidence may be referred in the interpretation of a contract as a whole or its individual terms.

1) "Plain meaning" rule – If a writing or term appears to be unambiguous on its face, it must be interpreted solely on the basis of such writing. The majority of jurisdictions apply this rule, despite growing criticism.

2) Williston's rules ("reasonable person" approach) – If a writing is an integration, the meaning given to it as a whole or any individual terms therein is that of a reasonably intelligent person in the circumstances that surrounded the making of the contract. If the writing is not an integration and is unambiguous, the terms are to be interpreted by an objective test – the interpretations that a reasonable person would give them. If the writing is not an integration and is ambiguous, subjective intent of the parties is relevant.

3) "Reasonable expectations of the parties" approach – This approach, espoused by Corbin and incorporated by the Restatement and UCC, allows all relevant extrinsic evidence to assist in interpretation, including the subjective intent of the parties.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Sorry I did not post my question in the correct context. What I am trying to measure was your perception based on the hype of the "unprecedented warranty" that was being touted and competing with GM at the time. (i.e Carlos Tavares speech in San Jose, CA)

Since you don't really have the option of reading the entire manual until you own or lease the car, at what point did most of you know that the warranty only covered the output only and not capacity?

Please read page #12 of CWERDNA's link, http://nissanleafwiki.com/images/c/c3/2011-leaf-warranty-booklet.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, as it states "The Lithium-ion battery (EV battery), like all lithium-ion batteries, will experience gradual capacity loss with time and use. Loss of battery capacity due to or resulting from gradual capacity loss is NOT covered under this warranty". It's up to the lawyers to prove that your loss was neither because of "time and use" or "gradual".

I think we need to read page 7, where to me the key words are. "ANY IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE IS LIMITED TO THE DURATION OF THE LIMITED WARRANTY."

So yes, in my opinion, and as Nissan has said, 70% of battery capacity at the end of the limited warranty period retains "merchantability" as opposed to boat anchor.

I am amazed that people will accept other cars losing "capacity" or range, as long as it isn't happening to them. I am amazed that people will accept an onboard charger that blows a diode if the wind is blowing in from the wrong direction, as long as it isn't their diode that's affected.

Nissan proudly advertises that 73 mile capacity or range. So 70% would be about 50 miles. Anything less, and the car does not operate for the purpose it was designed for.

 

[tokenride]

I did decide to persue to join a class action lawsuit with emphasis (from me) on battery replacment with ZERO cost.... I was clearly under the impression that the 8yr / 100,000 mile warranty gauranteed that it would cover capacity as well.

Good luck! I have serious doubt that there would be any disposition on this before your your car was unusable, so what is plan B?

:lol: then
Right now I can trickle charge at work...the problem is that LA is city where a car is mandatory to do anything. If the care becomes unusable Nissan might have an early lease termination to avoid bad publicity or if I have to wait out the 2 years and 9 months on my lease, so be it. I'll buy a cheap four banger ICE...

But I do HATEOIL!

 

[cwerdna]

Thank you for your up front replies. All very true and sobering. I think would have still leased the car because I really wanted to be off the oil...

Sothe key question is what is "gradual loss of capacity"?

Yes, the definition of "gradual" has been debated many times here on MNL. :/

Much later, Mark Perry in this video discussed (also posted many times) what is and isn't warranted WRT the battery:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShtvd5jJHQ&feature=relmfu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am amazed that people will accept other cars losing "capacity" or range, as long as it isn't happening to them. I am amazed that people will accept an onboard charger that blows a diode if the wind is blowing in from the wrong direction, as long as it isn't their diode that's affected.

Nissan proudly advertises that 73 mile capacity or range. So 70% would be about 50 miles. Anything less, and the car does not operate for the purpose it was designed for.

Accept? Well, unfortunately, you accept the terms of the warranty when you buy it. Either don't buy it all or lease. Vote w/your wallet and buy some other car that doesn't suffer such capacity loss due to high temps. (Yeah, yeah, it's unfortunately not something anyone knew would be such a big issue when they bought.)

I sure hope your argument is what finally works in the class action suit(s) that are no doubt coming.

I obviously feel very bad for the folks in who have lost 1+ capacity bar in a year or so, esp. those in AZ and TX.

 

[sub3marathonman]

Accept? Well, unfortunately, you accept the terms of the warranty when you buy it. Either don't buy it all or lease.

Actually, it seems more like Nissan isn't accepting the terms of the warranty when they sold it.

 

[KJD]

Hello All:
I just lost another capacity bar over the long weekend I

Call and report battery capacity loss to Nissan: 877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738).

 

[Stoaty]

Since you don't really have the option of reading the entire manual until you own or lease the car, at what point did most of you know that the warranty only covered the output only and not capacity?

I knew a long time before I purchased the Leaf that capacity wasn't covered. The problem is that I took the statements about "80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity at 10 years" as generally true. Currently I am doubting that any Leafs except those in Seattle or similar climate will achieve that slow a rate of capacity loss.