Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[theaveng]

As a Prius enthusiast and owner since January 06, I'm unaware of any such program for 1st gen Priuses (aka NHW11). The HV battery warranty on those was 8 years/100K miles.

(snip a lot of non-relevant information about Prius Cs and Lexuses). And now the Prius 1 warranty had been extended beyond 8 years/100,000.

 

[cwerdna]

As a Prius enthusiast and owner since January 06, I'm unaware of any such program for 1st gen Priuses (aka NHW11). The HV battery warranty on those was 8 years/100K miles.

(snip a lot of non-relevant information about Prius Cs and Lexuses). And now the Prius 1 warranty had been extended beyond 8 years/100,000.

Source and what's the new length?

We on Priuschat sometimes see NHW11's (1st gen Prius available in the US) w/HV battery failures out of the 8 year/100K mile warranty. If Toyota isn't (out of goodwill) willing to cover it or a sufficient amount, I've seen people pay full price for a new one, get a reman from places like http://www.re-involt.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, try to replace weak cells or try to rebuild a pack using Gen 2 (NHW20) cells.

 

[ztanos]

If payment same or lower, no out of pocket money and 24 month lease, I will too. I am leasing my leaf and have 30 months to go and have as of today no loss of battery bars, will do it to avoid impending loss as it appears no one's battery may last the full 39 months without any degradation. Unless Nissan will do something about them sooner than later.

Ian B

Is this even a valid argument? How could anybody have expected to have 100% battery after 3 years? That's just bad logic.

 

[CHLPatent]

No offense, but would you "take a chill pill," as my kids say, please, no need to be rude, eh? Sure, people are upset, but that isn't going to solve this.

I don't thin Nissan did such a great job of explaining best methods for battery longevity. The more often the battery is charged, the shorter the life-span, for example. So topping off every night, or several times a day IS going to shorten battery life - that's just the way it is with this battery technology. Looking over the material Nissan provides, I don't think they emphasized that enough. Maybe the Leaf just isn't optimally suitable for your particular driving needs, and others like you, because the range you need daily requires topping off everyday. A lease would be the way to go in your case, I'd say, if you still want to drive a Leaf. Don't you agree? Let Nissan bear the burden of premature battery capacity loss.

I think you'd have a strong arguement that you were not fully informed of this drawback, and maybe Nissan could be convinced to convert your purchase into a lease? Most states have a so-called 'lemon law' - I'm an attorney as well as an electrical engineer - but I do not know about AZ. This is not meant to be leagal advice or create an attorney-client relationship, consult a local attorney and do not rely on this to your detriment. Rather than face a lemon law suit, I'd think Nissan would prefer to settle - maybe a lease would be acceptable to you and them, I don't know? You probably be best to let an attorney handle this - be sure it's on a contingency basis and that Nissan pays her/his fees and costs.

Nissan does list some things to do to help extend battery life in their materials. They work for me because my driving habits do not require charging to 100% and the 80% long life level is adequate - I don;t need to top off or charge every day, more like every two or three days. But I still don't think they prepared/informed us all well about the battery life issues.

That said, I really do not know if, in fact, your topping off (every day?) is what caused your apparently premature battery capacity loss. Your on-board charging records might shed some light on that. Do you have acccess to them? I do not know whether the complete record is stored on your vehicle or at Nissan's server. I hope Nissan will illuminate all us owners on what is going on with these vehicles that DON'T have high-mileage.

And I still wonder if the lost bars you and others are seeing is accurately representing the actual energy capacity of your battery. Maybe it is. But maybe there is a component, like a $10 Hall-effect or other sensor, that is defective? That'd be covered under the warranty. In reseaching that possibility yesterday, I read that a month or so ago, there were some Leaf owners who used the GE WattStation and had the Leaf on-board chargers fail completely. The reason was they happened to be charging when there was a brown-out or power surge. At first they jumped to the conclusion that the GE WattStation had damaged their vehicles, but the fault lied with the Nissan provided on-board charging circuitry/firmware. It took a month or so to figure that out. Nissan repaired them under warranty. They also should have FORMALLY issued a warning NOT to charge your Leaf when there is the possibility of a brown-out or electrical storm - they mentioned an informal warning, but I hadn't heard about it until I read the article.

So maybe it will turn out your problems are not the $10,000 battery pack but instead some minor warranty-covered component in the sensing or charging circuitry that was damaged during a brown-out or power surge through no fault on your part? If so, we are all potentially affected, so I do want to see this thoroughly and competently analyzed. So far, I am not confident either Nissan or the well-meaning road testers have done what is needed.

I get your frustration. I don't want to sound too preachy but one reason we have a legal system is because most people can't calmly negotiate a rational settlement when they feel they've been harmed or wronged or whatever. I suggest not playing the 'blame game' - instead play to win, which to me means to resolve the problem.

chris

----------------
I charge to 100% all the time, never to 80%. Up till this year all charging used to be done when the car arrived home at the hottest part of the day. Have left it at full charge many times and used to "top off" everyday regardless of SOC. No turtles and no level 3s. There, get it over and post how it's all my fault. Come on, I know you want to. Oh, but wait, let's look at the posting from DesertDenizen


So he did everything right and I did it all wrong and we both wound up with the same problem. Our manufacture and ownership dates are the same. Expain please?[/quote]

 

[smkettner]

If payment same or lower, no out of pocket money and 24 month lease, I will too. I am leasing my leaf and have 30 months to go and have as of today no loss of battery bars, will do it to avoid impending loss as it appears no one's battery may last the full 39 months without any degradation. Unless Nissan will do something about them sooner than later.

Ian B

Is this even a valid argument? How could anybody have expected to have 100% battery after 3 years? That's just bad logic.

While 100% might be unrealistic I think most expected to have 12 capacity bars showing at the end of 3 years. Maybe just 2 years in extreme conditions surch as heat, frequent QC or just a lot of miles.

 

[MrIanB]

If payment same or lower, no out of pocket money and 24 month lease, I will too. I am leasing my leaf and have 30 months to go and have as of today no loss of battery bars, will do it to avoid impending loss as it appears no one's battery may last the full 39 months without any degradation. Unless Nissan will do something about them sooner than later.

Ian B

Is this even a valid argument? How could anybody have expected to have 100% battery after 3 years? That's just bad logic.

While 100% might be unrealistic I think most expected to have 12 capacity bars showing at the end of 3 years. Maybe just 2 years in extreme conditions surch as heat, frequent QC or just a lot of miles.

Thanks for info smKettner. I am in Cedar Park, Texas and just reached 6k miles today after 9 months with car since I work out of the house. No issues yet but, always want to be ahead of any POSSIBLE problems should they surface. Right now, I am 120% happy and satisfied with the car. Calling today to set up my first 6 months check up. Will post info once I get service done.

Ian B

 

[smkettner]

Calling today to set up my first 6 months check up. Will post info once I get service done.

Ian B

6 months? For what?

IMO the 1 yr battery check under warranty should be the first visit. I am not sure that is even needed if all seems fine.

 

[ztanos]

If payment same or lower, no out of pocket money and 24 month lease, I will too. I am leasing my leaf and have 30 months to go and have as of today no loss of battery bars, will do it to avoid impending loss as it appears no one's battery may last the full 39 months without any degradation. Unless Nissan will do something about them sooner than later.

Ian B

Is this even a valid argument? How could anybody have expected to have 100% battery after 3 years? That's just bad logic.

While 100% might be unrealistic I think most expected to have 12 capacity bars showing at the end of 3 years. Maybe just 2 years in extreme conditions surch as heat, frequent QC or just a lot of miles.

Of this I agree. I have no issues believing that the majority of LEAFs will fall withing the mentioned claim by Nissan. I hate that the car has issues in the heat and Nissan isn't doing anything about it. Just making sure people have realistic complaints before spreading the bad ju-ju.

 

[ztanos]

Calling today to set up my first 6 months check up. Will post info once I get service done.

Ian B

6 months? For what?

IMO the 1 yr battery check under warranty should be the first visit. I am not sure that is even needed if all seems fine.

He probably is going in to have his tires rotated.

 

[MrIanB]

Calling today to set up my first 6 months check up. Will post info once I get service done.

Ian B

6 months? For what?

IMO the 1 yr battery check under warranty should be the first visit. I am not sure that is even needed if all seems fine.

He probably is going in to have his tires rotated.

Yep, tires rotated, left front rim clear coat chipping off, musty smell from a/c(probably air filter change) and want them to program locks to unlock whenever car put in "P".

Other than this, it purrs like a cat and no issues.

Love it,

Ian B

 

[Roadburner440]

6 months? For what?

My dealer sent me a nice email about a week ago asking me about my 6 month check up. It was actually pretty well crafted, and I give them credit. It said I must be enjoying life without using gasoline, and having to deal with oil changes. Though it was time for my Leaf's 6 month check up. On this list they had tire rotation, CV joint inspection, and a ton of other stuff that I know it does not need. I am going to take it to one of the local tire places up the street, or take it on base and do it myself. I won't be taking mine in till the 1yr battery check next March. So some dealers do send out fliers for this sort of thing.

 

[vrwl]

Okay

I opened the case number with Nissan: 457256 with Eric.

Added to the wiki

 

[mksE55]

Okay

I opened the case number with Nissan: 457256 with Eric.

Added to the wiki

AND they keep piling up.

 

[azdre]

Apparently, the average of 76% is based on average Phoenix LEAF-driver milage of 7,500 miles per year. If 76% is an 'average' based on 7500 'average' annual milage, if you are driving over 7500 miles per year, you will end up with lower than 76% after 5 years in warm climates. [Correction: Phoenix, no estimates posted for other affected areas]

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079343_nissan-suggests-leaf-battery-capacity-loss-due-to-high-miles-exclusive" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[UPDATE: After this article was published, Nissan used the actual mileage of the seven cars in the test to provide additional data. "The average mileage for the cars investigated was 19,600 miles, and the average in-service time was 14.7 months," wrote the company's Katherine Zachary. "Average annual mileage [of those cars] is about 16,000 per year, more than double the average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year."]

Also, I don't remember much about my stats classes, but mean is relatively meaningless without distribution, median, min, and max. Is averaging these numbers meaningful with a sample size of 7? Of the 4 cars I know about the spread is 12,000 to 24,000 annual milage.

 

[Stoaty]

[UPDATE: After this article was published, Nissan used the actual mileage of the seven cars in the test to provide additional data. "The average mileage for the cars investigated was 19,600 miles, and the average in-service time was 14.7 months," wrote the company's Katherine Zachary. "Average annual mileage [of those cars] is about 16,000 per year, more than double the average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year."]

So the only way to have 76% capacity retention in Arizona is to drive just 7,500 miles a year??? That doesn't sound like a very useful car to me. The cars Nissan tested were not "high mileage", the average wasn't that much higher than their assumed 12,500 miles. I would characterize the Arizona 7,500 miles a year average as "low mileage", being far below the national average. Still sounds like spin to me.

 

[surfingslovak]

So the only way to have 76% capacity retention in Arizona is to drive just 7,500 miles a year??? That doesn't sound like a very useful car to me. The cars Nissan tested were not "high mileage", the average wasn't that much higher than their assumed 12,500 miles. I would characterize the Arizona 7,500 miles a year average as "low mileage", being far below the national average. Still sounds like spin to me.

I think the 7,500 annual miles used in testing were based on markets other than the US. More to the point:

7,500 x 1.6 = 12,000 km

To me, this looks like a figure that would perhaps apply in Europe, and some other parts of the world. I looked at WRS statistics, and cars seem to travel less than 10,000 km per year in Japan.

 

[azdre]

So the only way to have 76% capacity retention in Arizona is to drive just 7,500 miles a year??? That doesn't sound like a very useful car to me. The cars Nissan tested were not "high mileage", the average wasn't that much higher than their assumed 12,500 miles. I would characterize the Arizona 7,500 miles a year average as "low mileage", being far below the national average. Still sounds like spin to me.

I think the 7,500 annual miles used in testing were based on markets other than the US. More to the point:

7,500 x 1.6 = 12,000 km

To me, this looks like a figure that would perhaps apply in Europe, and some other parts of the world. I looked at WRS statistics, and cars seem to travel less than 10,000 km per year in Japan.

Quote from the article: " average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year." Maybe it's yet another completely false report?

 

[surfingslovak]

Quote from the article: " average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year." Maybe it's yet another completely false report?

Anyone know why Phoenix Leafs would see less than national average annual vehicle miles? Are they perhaps counting rentals, fleet vehicles or Leafs on dealer lots in this statistic?

 

[vrwl]

PS not to be nit picky but yfhong 2nd bar loss person# 34 is only listed in that section. I was under the impression you would be listed under every section as you lose bars. Just FYI

Yfhong's information has been added to the 1 Bar Lost table as well. Thanks for the catch on that one!

 

[vrwl]

You can add me to the one bar loss list, as of today.

Date: 9/21/12
Location: Tucson, AZ
VIN: 01742
Miles: 13146
Purchased May 2011
Nissan Case number: 949-1706
Manuf. date: 3/11

I saw my first 9 bar 80% charge on June 25th.
I haven't had a battery temp. below six bars since mid April.
I only saw 7 temp. bars this summer a few times. I can park in the shade of a tree at work, but have to move it as the sun moves.
Charges outside in my carport.
Charge to 100% maybe twice a month, the rest of the time charge to 80%. I did try to baby my battery this summer by keeping the max SOC to 7 bars.
5 stars on my yearly battery check.
Life time average of 5.0 mile/kWh

Added to the wiki, thanks so much for the full set of information the first time around. Really appreciate that!