Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TickTock said:
edatoakrun said:
Is the figure [email protected] as determined by the Nissan Capacity test at CG
Yes
edatoakrun said:
, from a later capacity test, or as calculated from the range test?

Your charge capacity records still seem to show something may have been limiting your charges last Summer, IMO.

Was there any discussion with Nissan of whether this had occurred, and could also have limited your charge prior to the Phoenix range test?
The data suggests the gid count was reduced during the summer, but the power from the wall suggests the amount of charge remained fairly constant with just gradual monotonic degradation.

It sounds like you are describing what we see In "best fit" below, correct?

Could you please elaborate on how those points and the cumulative declining capacity line was derived?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An7gtcYL2Oy0dHNwVmRkNkFnaEVOQTVENW5mOTZlb0E&pli=1#gid=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What I still don't understand is why your data does not seem to show any record the seasonal decline in charge capacity as measured by "0 to 80 wall" and " to 100 wall" last winter, that most of us seem to have seem to have observed when watching our own battery capacity.

Is your battery temperature at the time of charging more constant year-round, than would be typical?

If your battery temperature typically was significantly lower during charging over the Winter, than in the fall when you began to record observations, I can't see an easy explanation, other than the BMS, for your "from-the wall" data, which seems to show no seasonal loss of battery capacity due to colder battery temperature during winter charging.
 
TickTock said:
The data suggests the gid count was reduced during the summer, but the power from the wall suggests the amount of charge remained fairly constant with just gradual monotonic degradation.
Yes, and I can confirm that I observed a similar effect. Regardless of what the Gids did, energy from the wall was a more predictable indicator. It went down from about 24.5 kWh when the vehicle was new to about 22.4 kWh a month ago. Thank you for all the great data you have shared on the forum!
1
 
surfingslovak said:
TickTock said:
The data suggests the gid count was reduced during the summer, but the power from the wall suggests the amount of charge remained fairly constant with just gradual monotonic degradation.
Yes, and I can confirm that I observed a similar effect. Regardless of what the Gids did, energy from the wall was a more predictable indicator. It went down from about 24.5 kWh when the vehicle was new to about 22.4 kWh a month ago. Thank you for all the great data you have shared on the forum!
My car also matches surfingslovaks nearly exactly - my LEAF in the middle of July took 21.1 kWh from the wall (Blink) from 1 mi past VLBW to 100% after 13 months and 10.5k mi. I expect that if I had taken it to turtle I would have picked up another kWh or so, which puts it right at 10% capacity loss after 1 year assuming that when new 24.5 kWh would charge the car.
 
Repost from me on another forum:

I'm encouraged at the buy backs and early lease returns (one was declined so far). However, we all must recognize that none of this was possible without the persistence and strength of folks like Andrea, Mason, Scott Y, and a whole lot more. The folks who attacked and ridiculed those suffering from compromised LEAFs not only did nothing to help, some actually worked to interfere with these positive outcomes... let's just say that each of you know who you are, and so do we.

I hope that some day very soon, this issue will be wrapped to all our mutual satisfactions, and the sooner the better. Obviously, the folks at Nissan would like to launch the new 2013 USA manufactured LEAF with minimal scrapes and bruises from this first round of LEAF production.

Information is oozing out of Nissan as to how they could claim that the batteries are normal, when only the most obtuse would otherwise agree. Whether this information release was intentional or by accident, it's a positive step. Future owners should be alerted to exactly how a LEAF should react to Phoenix, Texas, Nevada or desert California heat based on data that Nissan had in its possession since day 1. And the same is true in cold climates. This data shouldn't be buried in pages of legal documents, but plainly presented on the car to help with a purchase decision. Certainly, the 100 miles range, and other references to fantastic capabilities should be eliminated in favor of simple, honest EPA range, just as Volt is advertised.

It's fraud by omission to suggest that the LEAF would get exactly the same 80% in 5 years battery capacity when in fact they knew that wasn't true for EVERY single LEAF sold in Arizona. The omission is that they decided that you only drive 7500 miles. They didn't tell you that until the last few days. So, every driver who drives a quite normal 12,000 - 15,000 miles (according to easy to find government records, and the reason WHY they offer those to mileages for leases) is indeed driving at double their flawed, and not disclosed 7500 miles.

I call those 7500 miles the "Nissan-LEAF-Years(TM)". For Scott Y. who traveled almost 30,000 miles in his car in about 18 months, had NO IDEA that he actually traveled about 4 NLYs, and with their recently re-indexed degradation from 80% to 76% in 5 of the NLYs, they can easily call even Scott's car as "normal" with 30% range reduction in 4 NLYs. Heck, it's only a few percent below the "norm".

Several lawsuits are in the works, and while I can't guess at the outcome, I can absolutely guarantee it will cost Nissan money, just as this whole endeavor has cost a little shine off the LEAF brand. In the future, there is much work to do, but the Nissan LEAF is critical to EV acceptance in the short term.

I believe the recently announced independent panel headed by Chelsea Sexton will be a key conduit to head off these kinds of huge blow ups in the future, and provide input to improve future versions of the LEAF. I have spoke with her recently and left encouraged to the possibilities.

I believe that Nissan now somewhat understands the gravity of this situation, and the ship is indeed turning away from the rocks.
 
drees said:
surfingslovak said:
TickTock said:
The data suggests the gid count was reduced during the summer, but the power from the wall suggests the amount of charge remained fairly constant with just gradual monotonic degradation.
Yes, and I can confirm that I observed a similar effect. Regardless of what the Gids did, energy from the wall was a more predictable indicator. It went down from about 24.5 kWh when the vehicle was new to about 22.4 kWh a month ago. Thank you for all the great data you have shared on the forum!
My car also matches surfingslovaks nearly exactly - my LEAF in the middle of July took 21.1 kWh from the wall (Blink) from 1 mi past VLBW to 100% after 13 months and 10.5k mi. I expect that if I had taken it to turtle I would have picked up another kWh or so, which puts it right at 10% capacity loss after 1 year assuming that when new 24.5 kWh would charge the car.

Neither of you mentioned whether you observed a seasonal variation of reduced battery capacity with cold weather, overlaying TickTock's observation of "...gradual monotonic degradation..." over time.

Is there not still a consensus that, whatever the LEAFs current capacity is, it will be reduced somewhat if the battery is significantly colder during charging?

So, assuming your battery is significantly cooler in winter, you should not see straight-line capacity reduction results "from the wall", there should be some additional reduction in capacity in winter, right?
 
Thanks, Tony. Andrea and I didn't wish for this outcome with the car we LOVED, and certainly didn't foresee getting quoted in news stories as a result of this, but I hope it pays off for everyone in the end and we're all able to jump into desert-loving EVs again some day.

With lawsuits ahead...

I can't wait for the discovery phase...
I can't wait for the discovery phase...
I can't wait for the discovery phase...
 
edatoakrun said:
Neither of you mentioned whether you observed a seasonal variation of reduced battery capacity with cold weather, overlaying TickTock's observation of "...gradual monotonic degradation..." over time.
No, I have not. I only have three of four data points, since they were not easy to collect. It's much easier to get your Gid reading on an 80% or a 100% charge.
opossum said:
I can't wait for the discovery phase...
Ditto! Much remains to be learned and understood, and hopefully the truth will set us free. I also wanted to reiterate your statement that I'm saddened to see this outcome. However, given the trajectory we've been on for about half a year now, this was as predictable as it was avoidable.
1
 
I would add the the EPA mileage of 73 is misleading as well. From what I could make of the EPA test procedure, it goes until turtle and the owners manual advises you to find a charge prior to VLBW. That puts true starting range at 63ish.

To be fair, not many EV drivers drive such that max ideal-condition range is only 73 miles. I was able to get 80-90 miles while new by just keeping speed 60 or below.
 
EVDRIVER said:
A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.
No way, that's about half the price of bare LiFePO4 cells from China, which are probably the lowest cost EV sized cells available.
 
WetEV said:
Bigger battery, and no battery cooling are not mistakes. Battery size costs money. Battery cooling costs money, energy and isn't needed most places.
My Honda insight has battery cooling and it's really not a big deal. Just a fan that vents into the passenger cabin to circulate cool air over the module.
 
JPWhite said:
EVDRIVER said:
A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.
Cool. Where did you get the info? I presume you posted elsewhere on the forum about it, just give me as a refresher :)
What has been posted a number of other places is that EVDRIVER has a twisted sense of humor. :roll:

Ray
 
Yes, he may have a twisted sense of humor, but Ingineer backs up his claim:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8354&start=70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
cwerdna said:
I heard one who turned theirs in got some VW TDI. FWIW, I wouldn't buy a VW nor one of their TDIs (due to VW's generally spotty reliability and more recent HPFP problems). And "clean diesels" are pretty dirty in terms of EPA pollution score vs. PZEV certified cars.
The difference between a diesel ULEV and a gasoline SULEV car are minimal... just 1-2 grams more NOx per year. And almost ZERO carbon monoxide for the diesel. In fact a current-year diesel ULEV-II is cleaner than the ULEV-I Civic Hybrid I used to own. Nor are the CO2 emissions as horrible as you claim:

Jetta TDI == 299grams/yr
Toyota Corolla = 306grams/yr
 
azdre said:
I would add the the EPA mileage of 73 is misleading as well. From what I could make of the EPA test procedure, it goes until turtle and the owners manual advises you to find a charge prior to VLBW. That puts true starting range at 63ish.
VLBW means?
 
theaveng said:
azdre said:
I would add the the EPA mileage of 73 is misleading as well. From what I could make of the EPA test procedure, it goes until turtle and the owners manual advises you to find a charge prior to VLBW. That puts true starting range at 63ish.
VLBW means?

VLBW = Very Low Battery Warning.
 
Stoaty said:
Yes, he may have a twisted sense of humor, but Ingineer backs up his claim:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8354&start=70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I still don't believe it, that would break all known lithium pricing to date by a large margin, and would mean that Nissan has no justification for the current price of the LEAF. We are talking game changing pricing, I'll need some actual proof.
 
JRP3 said:
Stoaty said:
Yes, he may have a twisted sense of humor, but Ingineer backs up his claim:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8354&start=70" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I still don't believe it, that would break all known lithium pricing to date by a large margin, and would mean that Nissan has no justification for the current price of the LEAF. We are talking game changing pricing, I'll need some actual proof.

and your belief is required for what? why do you think "other" batteries should be cheaper? and what batteries are you referring too anyway?

what are your "known lithium prices?" are you talking about ordering batteries from a company that will ship them to you from China for your DIY EV?

well then! let price chargers or any other EV part for that matter. i know guys who put together an EV conversion with $20,000 into it and dont have half the car the LEAF is.
 
turbo2ltr said:
2: The only people that win in class action lawsuits (or any for that matter) are the lawyers. IANAL, so I will not participate in any class action.
I've gotten close to 1000 dollars from class-action lawsuits. $25 from the CD/record Company cartel case, $85 from the paypal case, and 800 from the Equinox MLM class-action case.
 
i know guys who put together an EV conversion with $20,000 into it and dont have half the car the LEAF is.
And I know guys who have put $20K into a conversion and have a car as good as the LEAF is, without battery capacity loss issues. As for known battery pricing, all analysts and industry experts quote far higher prices than what is being claimed for the Nissan pack. It works out to around $200 per kWh, far lower than anyone has projected. http://green.autoblog.com/2012/04/06/lithium-ion-battery-costs-will-still-be-about-400-kwh-by-2020/
Now I don't think all of those projections are correct but $200 per kWh is an industry breakthrough if true, hence my skepticism. I'd be quite happy to be wrong, but I'd like some solid proof before I take it as gospel.
 
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