Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[jspearman]

To my knowledge, nobody has had to buy a module.... yet. Since I fully expect a "Citizens, all is well" from Nissan regarding capacity loss, and since I suspect the battery degrades all cells somewhat uniformly, the cheapest way to get back your range won't be buying up to 48 of the $600 modules (that are going to degrade exactly the same way as the ones you have).

Tony, let me quote something straight from the horse's mouth:

They had to replace a bunch of battery cells. It took 16 days, parts had to be ordered, a specialist had to drive up from Los Angeles to do the repairs, yadda, yadda. It was expensive (I didn’t have to pay) – about $2600, plus a rental car $550.

So it's possible, although these were likely not retail customer prices. Be it as it may, I agree with your recommendation, and I would urge anyone who owned a Leaf outright to see if it could be traded in for a 2012 lease. I know couple of people that have done just that in recent weeks, and this is the prudent thing to do. I wouldn't wait for the uncertain outcome of lemon law buybacks or some litigation. If you like the Leaf and would like to keep driving it, see if there was dealer that would let you trade in for a 2012. I would have a hard look especially at the 24-month lease deals, since battery degradation likely won't have much impact, with the exception of the hotter climates.

I wrote Trudy Varin at Avondale Nissan earlier this week and asked if I could trade our car in for a lease. I asked if they would stand behind the car, since it appeared their parent company was not taking responsibility. So far, no response, but then I have no idea what Nissan corporate is now telling Phoenix dealers, in light of the statement that they may pull all the cars.

Someone should go to a Phoenix dealer and act like they are trying to buy one, maybe mentioning they heard about the possible problems with the batteries. I'd be curious to hear the reaction from their Leaf specialists.

 

[surfingslovak]

I wrote Trudy Varin at Avondale Nissan earlier this week and asked if I could trade our car in for a lease. I asked if they would stand behind the car, since it appeared their parent company was not taking responsibility. So far, no response, but then I have no idea what Nissan corporate is now telling Phoenix dealers, in light of the statement that they may pull all the cars.

Someone should go to a Phoenix dealer and act like they are trying to buy one, maybe mentioning they heard about the possible problems with the batteries. I'd be curious to hear the reaction from their Leaf specialists.

Have you tried dealers outside your immediate area? The person I talked to today mentioned that they went out of their way to find a less busy dealer, which was really motivated to unload their 2012 showroom car. Their battery was down 9% according to a test performed at another dealer. No missing bars, although they would likely have lost one in the next few months.

 

[jspearman]

I wrote Trudy Varin at Avondale Nissan earlier this week and asked if I could trade our car in for a lease. I asked if they would stand behind the car, since it appeared their parent company was not taking responsibility. So far, no response, but then I have no idea what Nissan corporate is now telling Phoenix dealers, in light of the statement that they may pull all the cars.

Someone should go to a Phoenix dealer and act like they are trying to buy one, maybe mentioning they heard about the possible problems with the batteries. I'd be curious to hear the reaction from their Leaf specialists.

Have you tried dealers outside your immediate area? The person I talked to today mentioned that they went out of their way to find a less busy dealer, which was really motivated to unload their 2012 showroom car. Their battery was down 9% according to a test performed at another dealer. No missing bars, although they would likely have lost one in the next few months.

We are very close to losing our third bar, so I doubt anyone will touch our car. It looks like the warranty process that Opossum went through is our only option.

 

[JPWhite]

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

What is asserted regarding the 80% long life charging recommendation was NOT disclosed to me or many other LEAF owners I spoke to. So that part of the lawsuit has merit IMHO.

Loss of range through use/time/temp etc I'm not sure the lawsuit has much to stand on given the legal disclaimers we all signed at purchase/lease.

 

[JPWhite]

I still haven't gotten an official price for the battery.

Nissan have been coy about this little piece from day 1. I remember the number one question asked at the test drive event in Franklin TN in early 2011 prior to the cars launch, was how much is the battery pack cost to replace? The answer was we haven't got a price for that yet. Nissan are being deliberate in not wanting to set a price nor sell a battery pack to anyone. It's something they want not remain private. We can keep asking but my guess is they don't want to release that info. We can speculate why, but the doesn't change the fact they remain mum on the subject.

 

[mark1313]

Im not angry over the 100 miles claim,I did that every week,but I drove the Leaf like I drove the Prius (Hypermiler)I can not get 100 miles now..Its losing 2 bars in 45 days and not to park on hot pavement (110) for more then 5 hours or to only charge to 80% ..That was not in the advertisements that I read..

Not a chance I would be part of this kind of a lawsuit. Make way for the greed monsters. Nissan made it really clear that the range would vary and the sticker on the window said 73 miles range. Anyone who bought the car without reading the window sticker is a fool.

While I read and studied extensively before purchasing my Leaf, I don't think you can reasonably expect everyone to do the same. Nissan never should have been making the 100 mile claim that they did over and over again. That is the number that would stick in most peoples minds. If they had advertised the EPA range, and given out data for different climates, they wouldn't be in this mess. We know now that they hid a lot of important information that should have been disclosed prior to the sale. How many people would have skipped buying the Leaf if they knew that 10% capacity loss in one year was pretty close to the expected national average? How many people in hot climates would have said "No thanks" if they knew that they would see accelerated rate of degradation--especially if they drove more than 7500 miles per year. How many knew that driving 16,000 miles per year in a hot climate would be considered excessive by Nissan and would lead to high but "normal" rates of degradation?

While I don't want to see the EV movement hindered by this lawsuit, let's face it--Nissan brought this problem on themselves. They used too many generalities and weasel words in order to boost sales and glossed over or hid the information needed to make an informed purchase decision.

PS I am glad I purchased my Leaf, so it can't be taken away and crushed. It will work out fine for my needs for about 10 years, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[mark1313]

That pic must of been taken in Phx,looks like 7 temp bars are showing..Just another Nissan fraud advertisement...Boy did they fool me into buying a Leaf..

Let's see how long it takes you to spot the deceit in this Leaf ad... (SPOILER - Related to the amount of SOC remaining.)

I don't see it?

There are maybe 8 SOC bars showing, with GOM indicating 132 miles left until depleted. In my dreams.

 

[mark1313]

So lets say Nissan buys my battery defected Leaf from me in Phx..Do I pull-out my $400+ seat-covers and $250 carbonfiber dash moldings out of the car ? Will they also repay my extended warranty..

Dam one thing I will miss is my 5 year license plate..

By the way I went to Ford today to look at their electric car..I ask about special cooling for the battery and the guy said (0) no special cooling and that it was a sealed unit that should be problem free for years to come....uh oh...

I told him to check out this web site and that there may be a Ford electric car web site 2 years from now with a battery section that is 400 pages long :shock:

 

[kmp647]

Mark the focus ev does have a TMS that actively cools the pack (and heats it when nec)

the car even reminds you " its hot out, please plug me in"

it uses liquid or the a/c circuit not sure which , but it has one and it works so far.

if you have electric where you park in the daytime sun , battry will stay normal temp and you won lose range because the cooler will run off the grid

 

[WetEV]

By the way I went to Ford today to look at their electric car..I ask about special cooling for the battery and the guy said (0) no special cooling and that it was a sealed unit that should be problem free for years to come....uh oh...

Keep vehicle plugged in when not
in use to maintain proper battery
temperature.
Ford Focus BEV Owners Manual

 

[opossum]

Mark, IF they agree to buy back your car, they will ask for aftermarket items to be removed and for the car to be put back to its OEM configuration. Dammit, you just reminded me that I have to go back under the car and plug that stupid low-speed/backup speaker back in by Tuesday morning! Wait, maybe THAT is why we lost 30% of our range! :lol: Anyway, if you can't restore the car to its stock configuration, they will (or at least reserve the right to) charge you.

The extended warranty is a good question. I suspect they would/should refund that, as they are refunding all other purchase costs... even the $5 tire disposal fee. I think the cost of the extended warranty was missing from Randy's paperwork. He was going to clear this up with Nissan, but I don't know what the outcome was. Check with him (WiltingLeaf).

We won't have another alternative fuel vehicle to transfer our blue plate to, but we will get back most of the 5-year registration we paid earlier this year. That will come from the gubmint.

 

[shrink]

Very, very happy for Scott, opossum/azdre, and wiltingleaf, but check out the latest corporate-speak about this. It does not bode well for others. Still "normal" and it appears they will continue to sell in Phoenix since there's nothing wrong:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1079475_nissan-buys-back-leaf-electric-cars-under-arizona-lemon-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to Nissan spokeswoman Katherine Zachary, the decision to buy back cars isn't an admittance of fault on Nissan's part: it's a way to keep customers happy.

"Nissan works hard to satisfy individual customers when they express unhappiness with their ownership experience," she told us. "In the interest of customer satisfaction, Nissan has recently repurchased two customer vehicles as a good will gesture. The company's investigation has determined that there is no defect with the Nissan Leaf, but we did use a buyback formula modelled on an Arizona state repurchase law, given its stablished criteria."

Reiterating that Nissan believes the issue of premature battery loss to be confined to a small number of cases, and that globally, Nissan Leaf customers remain one of the most satisfied car owners in the world, Zachary added, "Remember, this is a small group of owners we're talking about, and it's not a pervasive problem. It's a combination of high temperatures and high miles in a small number of cases."

 

[EVDRIVER]

I still haven't gotten an official price for the battery.

Nissan have been coy about this little piece from day 1. I remember the number one question asked at the test drive event in Franklin TN in early 2011 prior to the cars launch, was how much is the battery pack cost to replace? The answer was we haven't got a price for that yet. Nissan are being deliberate in not wanting to set a price nor sell a battery pack to anyone. It's something they want not remain private. We can keep asking but my guess is they don't want to release that info. We can speculate why, but the doesn't change the fact they remain mum on the subject.

A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.

 

[JPWhite]

I still haven't gotten an official price for the battery.

Nissan have been coy about this little piece from day 1. I remember the number one question asked at the test drive event in Franklin TN in early 2011 prior to the cars launch, was how much is the battery pack cost to replace? The answer was we haven't got a price for that yet. Nissan are being deliberate in not wanting to set a price nor sell a battery pack to anyone. It's something they want not remain private. We can keep asking but my guess is they don't want to release that info. We can speculate why, but the doesn't change the fact they remain mum on the subject.

A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.

Cool. Where did you get the info? I presume you posted elsewhere on the forum about it, just give me as a refresher

 

[wiltingleaf]

So lets say Nissan buys my battery defected Leaf from me in Phx..Do I pull-out my $400+ seat-covers and $250 carbonfiber dash moldings out of the car ? Will they also repay my extended warranty..

I don't know about you Mark, but I put the extended warranty into my loan so it was covered. I'm not sure how they would treat it if you paid for it outright. It should be covered according to AZ lemon law. Arizona Revised Statue 44-1263. "the manufacturer shall replace the motor vehicle with a new motor vehicle or accept return of the motor vehicle from the consumer and refund to the consumer the full purchase price, including all collateral charges, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle." The key term is collateral charges. I definitely believe the extended warranty should fall under this.

 

[shrink]

So lets say Nissan buys my battery defected Leaf from me in Phx..Do I pull-out my $400+ seat-covers and $250 carbonfiber dash moldings out of the car ? Will they also repay my extended warranty..

I don't know about you Mark, but I put the extended warranty into my loan so it was covered. I'm not sure how they would treat it if you paid for it outright. It should be covered according to AZ lemon law. Arizona Revised Statue 44-1263. "the manufacturer shall replace the motor vehicle with a new motor vehicle or accept return of the motor vehicle from the consumer and refund to the consumer the full purchase price, including all collateral charges, less a reasonable allowance for the consumer's use of the vehicle." The key term is collateral charges. I definitely believe the extended warranty should fall under this.

When I sold my 2011 LEAF I wrote a letter to my dealer with proof of sale, including mileage at the time of sale, and asked for a refund of the extended warranty. I received a prorated refund about 4 weeks later.

However, I'm not sure how it will work in these buyback cases.

 

[JeremyW]

A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.

I'd love to believe you, but you are not Nissan.

 

[edatoakrun]

Here's my receation of the graph I think is most pertinent to all owners/buyers to decide individual course of action. The actual dots are numbers I wrote down, I filled in the gaps from memory based on the shape. Indeed there is a precipitous drop in capacity in the first 6 months and then the degradation slows and continues to slow over time. The key thing to notice is the 80%@5years we've all been using to base our decisions is actually only the median value and not what a Phoenician can use as an "expected value" These curves are based on average mileage per area: 7500 for Phoenix (I don't recall what the Boston number was except that it was higher then Phoenix). I drive almost 2X that which explains why I am sitting well below the Phoenix predicted curve at [email protected]. This data is not LA4, but rather a 32.2A discharge rate to better match 55mph discharge rate.
The axis on the right was not on the graph I was presented. I added that based on the 84.7%SOH Nissan measured and the 74 mile range Tony measured shortly after so I can get a realistic idea how much range I will have at year 5. As you can see it will be well below the 65miles per day I require. If you stick within the 7500 miles per year (~30 miles/day), you should get 65 miles after 5 years and still be quite happy since you only need 30.

Thanks for posting this TickTock.

Context and graph on page 393 here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=230575#p230575" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The rapid loss of battery capacity you report in the first 6 months, pretty much answers the puzzling results
I have seen in my own range tests, showing negligible loss of range over the last year. Most of my cars capacity loss probably occurred during the first six months from the factory, and 3,300 miles of driving before my first range test Last Summer. I just haven't had enough additional loss, over the last year, to show up over the other "noise" in my more recent range tests.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=9064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Is the figure [email protected] as determined by the Nissan Capacity test at CG, from a later capacity test, or as calculated from the range test?

Your charge capacity records still seem to show something may have been limiting your charges last Summer, IMO.

Was there any discussion with Nissan of whether this had occurred, and could also have limited your charge prior to the Phoenix range test?

 

[vrwl]

A pack is under $5K retail, the entire fully assembled pack with batteries.

I'd love to believe you, but you are not Nissan.

+1

 

[TickTock]

Is the figure [email protected] as determined by the Nissan Capacity test at CG

Yes

, from a later capacity test, or as calculated from the range test?

Your charge capacity records still seem to show something may have been limiting your charges last Summer, IMO.

Was there any discussion with Nissan of whether this had occurred, and could also have limited your charge prior to the Phoenix range test?

The data suggests the gid count was reduced during the summer, but the power from the wall suggests the amount of charge remained fairly constant with just gradual monotonic degradation.