Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[dvlax40]

from what ive gathered, a lot of issues pertaining to battery problems seem to be anecdotal in that they are talking about loosing a bar that is at best a total crapshoot in calculating batter capacity/charge. Its frustrating to say the least the the gauge is so useless and we lack an OEM battery health monitoring solution.

has anyone ascertained how the GOM is calculating ? what variables is it pulling from?

I feel that there is so much more in the ECU/Telematics that we could get information from on these issues

/puts tinfoil hat on:

I am suspicious that the GOM feeds off the telematics and gets a weather report for the day and bases its models around that temperature for ambiant driving conditions.

/removes tin foil hat.

 

[TomT]

You are mixing apples, guavas, and oranges. The capacity bars are very different from the charge level bars which are also very different from the GOM reading...

from what ive gathered, a lot of issues pertaining to battery problems seem to be anecdotal in that they are talking about loosing a bar that is at best a total crapshoot in calculating batter capacity/charge. Its frustrating to say the least the the gauge is so useless and we lack an OEM battery health monitoring solution.

has anyone ascertained how the GOM is calculating ? what variables is it pulling from?

I feel that there is so much more in the ECU/Telematics that we could get information from on these issues

/puts tinfoil hat on:

I am suspicious that the GOM feeds off the telematics and gets a weather report for the day and bases its models around that temperature for ambiant driving conditions.

/removes tin foil hat.

 

[dvlax40]

You are mixing apples, guavas, and oranges. The capacity bars are very different from the charge level bars which are also very different from the GOM reading...

thats my point exactly! its not clear people are all reporting from a standardized set of measurements. its ignorant to infer from a limited dataset, let alone one in which reports are not coming from a verified/standardized measurement model

 

[TonyWilliams]

Had a BBQ at my daughter's school this morning. The other dude on the grill and I got to talking about electric cars. He asked me if I ever had any problems with the LEAF, and I said no.

He said he had heard that the batteries didn't last long in Phoenix...

ah, ya, that... well, yes, I know a little bit about that.

 

[dvlax40]

Had a BBQ at my daughter's school this morning. The other dude on the grill and I got to talking about electric cars. He asked me if I ever had any problems with the LEAF, and I said no.

He said he had heard that the batteries didn't last long in Phoenix...

ah, ya, that... well, yes, I know a little bit about that.

what are you trying to imply!

 

[91040]

Why do you need to stay above LBW? ~3kWh still remains at that point and ~1kWh remains after VLB. The quick drop in voltage doesn't happen until after VLB. No need to baby your battery since you are leasing.

Fortunately, I only have 25 months left on my lease. As long as I can go 45 miles on a 100% charge and not reach LBW, I'll be ok (not happy, but ok). If it starts getting close to that, it will time to retire the LEAF and go get a Volt, even if the LEAF still has a few months left on the lease.

 

[TomT]

Yep, my goal is to turn in my Leaf with the least amount of battery I can! :lol:

Why do you need to stay above LBW? ~3kWh still remains at that point and ~1kWh remains after VLB. The quick drop in voltage doesn't happen until after VLB. No need to baby your battery since you are leasing.

 

[dvlax40]

Yep, my goal is to turn in my Leaf with the least amount of battery I can! :lol:

you and i are in teh same boat, finally a way for us to stick it to the man on our lease!

its a crime they even charge a finance fee, take the car back and then sell it again, even AFTER taking the tax credit.... leasing is a total racket in general

 

[QueenBee]

Yep, my goal is to turn in my Leaf with the least amount of battery I can! :lol:

you and i are in teh same boat, finally a way for us to stick it to the man on our lease!

its a crime they even charge a finance fee, take the car back and then sell it again, even AFTER taking the tax credit.... leasing is a total racket in general

No idea why you have such a bone to pick with leasing but besides the fact that the dealer can increase the money factor without the buyer knowing it, it all seems fair to me. When did financing a purchase become a crime?

 

[TomT]

I believe he is referring more to the battery degradation situation and Nissan's (lack of) response to it than to leasing in general...

Yep, my goal is to turn in my Leaf with the least amount of battery I can! :lol:

you and i are in teh same boat, finally a way for us to stick it to the man on our lease!

its a crime they even charge a finance fee, take the car back and then sell it again, even AFTER taking the tax credit.... leasing is a total racket in general

No idea why you have such a bone to pick with leasing but besides the fact that the dealer can increase the money factor without the buyer knowing it, it all seems fair to me. When did financing a purchase become a crime?

 

[shrink]

thats my point exactly! its not clear people are all reporting from a standardized set of measurements. its ignorant to infer from a limited dataset, let alone one in which reports are not coming from a verified/standardized measurement model

You're out of line claiming people are "ignorant" for interpreting loss of capacity bars as battery degradation. It's a rather simple deduction based on the definition of the gauge itself.

Now it's not the most precise measurement, but at the town hall meeting in Scottsdale a few months back, Andy Palmer, Nissan VP, said the bars were "overly pessimistic" and that they were going to change the programing to tighten up the range of capacity loss each bar represents.

So Nissan knows exactly what range of remaining capacity each bar represents; and many here have developed quite reasonable and hardly ignorant ideas about capacity bar values based on old service manuals and readings from GIDmeters, CANBus, Scanguage, LEAFSCAN, etc.

Bottom line is that loss of capacity bars means battery degradation. The measure does represent a range, so it's not the most precise, but it's hardly a "crapshoot" and is based on a standardized measurement model developed by Nissan engineers. Nissan is even basing the battery capacity warranty on lost capacity bars.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Yep and the GOM shouldn't ever be used in determining the amount of capacity loss or lack of.

 

[Valdemar]

Four years in my case...

If you had asked me the question a year ago, I'd have said no. Now ... I'm not so sure!

Do you really expect to lose four bars in So. Cal in three years? Palm Springs I could understand, but the San Fernando Valley?

It is interesting that we live fairly close and our cars have comparable mileage (mine just turned 30k yesterday), and yet yours is missing 2 bars vs. all bars on mine. I do expect to lose one bar this summer based on the history of getting 9 bars on 80% charge. It could be because my Leaf has been through one full summer only (9/2011 delivery) but still it appears not all batteries are made the same. Also I have very low perceived range loss, I return home with 20 miles on the GOM on average from my commute to work, which is pretty much same as it was a year ago. If I recall it correctly I could come back with 24-25 miles on the GOM when the car was new, that is after 80% charge. Yes, GOM readings is not a reliable data, but in my case the numbers are fairly consistent over a large sample of trips on the same route.

 

[TomT]

Yes, mine did not loose any bars until well after the first full summer... At the same number of months as you (my car is 6 months older), I was also still showing 12 capacity bars... My experience was that the the second summer was the turning point... It may also be due to a number of other factors as well such as temperature where we park for work, garage temperature, that until about six months ago my daily drive was about 55 miles which is more than yours, phase of the moon, barometric pressure, etc...

It is interesting that we live fairly close and our cars have comparable mileage (mine just turned 30k yesterday), and yet yours is missing 2 bars vs. all bars on mine. I do expect to lose one bar this summer based on the history of getting 9 bars on 80% charge. It could be because my Leaf has been through one full summer only (9/2011 delivery) but still it appears not all batteries are made the same.

 

[shrink]

As expected, lost the 1st capacity bar on Blue 842 this morning. I believe this is the 2nd to last car in the range test still with the original owner. I think Tick Tock is the other. The loss coincides with the return of steady 100 degree highs in Phoenix.

Leased on 6/26/2012. Mileage is 10,800.

By contrast, the 2011 I sold last year when all this fun started lost its first bar around the same time last year at 10,200 miles and 10 months of ownership. That info is in the wiki.

I care don't care as much because we have only 1-year left in the 2-year lease. The short lease after selling the 2011 with lost capacity bar was intentional and I'm relieved I don't own this thing. I'm currently saving for a RAV4 EV and hoping for a Model S I can't afford without liquidating some appreciating assets and I'm not about to do that.

I just hope this thread keeps warm weather buyers informed because without a hot climate disclaimer, Nissan is doing a disservice to its customers and potentially hurting EV's.

 

[dvlax40]

thats my point exactly! its not clear people are all reporting from a standardized set of measurements. its ignorant to infer from a limited dataset, let alone one in which reports are not coming from a verified/standardized measurement model

You're out of line claiming people are "ignorant" for interpreting loss of capacity bars as battery degradation. It's a rather simple deduction based on the definition of the gauge itself.

Now it's not the most precise measurement, but at the town hall meeting in Scottsdale a few months back, Andy Palmer, Nissan VP, said the bars were "overly pessimistic" and that they were going to change the programing to tighten up the range of capacity loss each bar represents.

So Nissan knows exactly what range of remaining capacity each bar represents; and many here have developed quite reasonable and hardly ignorant ideas about capacity bar values based on old service manuals and readings from GIDmeters, CANBus, Scanguage, LEAFSCAN, etc.

Bottom line is that loss of capacity bars means battery degradation. The measure does represent a range, so it's not the most precise, but it's hardly a "crapshoot" and is based on a standardized measurement model developed by Nissan engineers. Nissan is even basing the battery capacity warranty on lost capacity bars.

Its not out of line, loss of a bar can be interpreted multiple ways, i had 9 bars at 80 percent charge one day and then 10 the next.... did my battery mysteriously gain capacity? or is the system in flux and the output of the gauge dubious?

im sorry ignorant is the wrong word. It is unscientific to say that you have battery loss based on the gauge which has been KNOWN to put out incorrect information. You would never see a major research institution basing its claims on equipment that was inherently questionable. Now granted GiDs and other forms of measurement can help us make a more reasonable assumption and im not questioning that. but to simply say a loss of a bar is always battery degradation (while true in most instances) is disingenuous as no-one to my knowledge has figured out the exact formula that the software is using for its calculations.

I apologize if that offends you.

 

[Weatherman]

The problem is that, for a vast majority of us, the gauges are all we have.

If the car starts dinging a very low battery warning after 60 miles, how many people are just going to ignore it and say, “I don’t have any battery degradation. I can, easily, go another 20 miles at freeway speeds.”?

 

[tbleakne]

I just hope this thread keeps warm weather buyers informed because without a hot climate disclaimer, Nissan is doing a disservice to its customers and potentially hurting EV's.

+1
The dealer Leaf sales manager who sold me my Leaf believes the 2 year lease deal means Nissan is planning a major upgrade in 2 years. If Nissan is smart, this upgrade will include active temperature management of the battery.

 

[TomT]

You can't directly compare fuel bars and capacity bars as is being done here. They mean completely different things and are calculated differently. Whether you see 9 or 10 bars on an 80% charge is influenced by a number of factors that include battery capacity, battery temperatures during the charge and currently, and rounding error.

Its not out of line, loss of a bar can be interpreted multiple ways, i had 9 bars at 80 percent charge one day and then 10 the next.... did my battery mysteriously gain capacity? or is the system in flux and the output of the gauge dubious?

 

[TomT]

TMS? In two years? Very unlikely... Four years is the normal cycle time for auto manufacturers to do an update though, so 2015 would make sense for the next Leaf in other regards...

Two reasons they are offering two years leases are because it is cost effective and moves cars, and because almost no one will get in serious battery degradation trouble in that short a period...

I just hope this thread keeps warm weather buyers informed because without a hot climate disclaimer, Nissan is doing a disservice to its customers and potentially hurting EV's.

+1
The dealer Leaf sales manager who sold me my Leaf believes the 2 year lease deal means Nissan is planning a major upgrade in 2 years. If Nissan is smart, this upgrade will include active temperature management of the battery.