Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[dvlax40]

Stoaty,

Ive read through the tests, they great for documentation, but i find them lacking in precision. on the phoenix run, was there any documentation done on ambiant temperatures? battery temperatures? battery discharge rate per mile? average speed? amount of regeneration?

im not saying the tests are wrong, they give us a good insite into battery degradation, but it is somewhat corse in regards to all potential variables. I understand its not a lab setting, but does that make me the bad guy for wanting more info? should you not be striving to have the most sterile test conditions possible? I mean there already was the indecent of including a data from a car who did not reach turtle.


has anyone pulled the data from the telematics to see what exactly they are sending back to nissan?

 

[surfingslovak]

I agree a lot of progress is being made in the community, Im not arguing that, what im saying is that there is a psychological tendency for people that are upset to interpret data into their own view. Im not saying they are wrong and are NOT seeing degradation. What i am saying is that there are instances of things being claimed as absolute or with the highest of understanding when in reality we still have a lot of unanswered questions.

Yes, some people are better than others when it comes to interpreting data. It's good to call that out and keep it in the back of your mind as your read through the posts here. I don't think that much will change, unfortunately. Not everyone will become an engineer overnight. That said, there is a number of very skilled and well-informed owners here, and consensus established on several topics is generally a good guide for the uninitiated.

Obviously, the need for interpretative analysis and owner self-help would be much less pronounced, if the manufacturer shared some of the data and design information available to them more freely. Although this comes up periodically, and Nissan has indeed shared some additional information, the body of public knowledge about the LEAF is still fairly limited. Please note that I'm not saying this to place any value judgement, just stating how I see things.

On the topic of 15% loss per capacity gauge bar: this came straight from Nissan's shop manuel (see a screenshot below). Please don't assume that all the opinions shared and voiced on MNL are based on folklore alone or came out of thin air. Far from it. I agree with the fundamental premise of your post that any data needs to be taken critically. Please keep in mind that there is a slight difference between critical and dismissive though.

 

[TomT]

Yep, a 100% charge now gets me less than an 80% charge used to...

Losing one capacity bar is at least a15% loss, but I KNOW that when my car was new, I could easily go 100 miles on an 80% charge. When I lost a CB, I had to charge to 100% just to reach 80%, and for the same route, same speed, same ambient temps, etc., I could drive 100 miles.

 

[dvlax40]

Not ignoring the obvious just not trying to let feelings cloud my judgment. never said heat wasnt an issue either, notice where im from? in fact we know heat is an issue because it is an issue for the chemical make up of the battery itself! what i am trying to say, but is apparently lost on emotion, is that we dont have a good idea of HOW bad the degradation is, we just know its there and its faster then average.

Actually, we have a pretty good idea how bad the degradation is. It's all documented in the Wiki, along with a Battery Aging Model that has been shown to be reasonably accurate:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

+1! Losing one capacity bar is at least a15% loss, but I KNOW that when my car was new, I could easily go 100 miles on an 80% charge. When I lost a CB, I had to charge to 100% just to reach 80%, and for the same route, same speed, same ambient temps, etc., I could drive 100 miles. So when I charged to 80%, I could only go about 65 miles. Dvlax, if you do the math, that's a 20% loss of capacity. Now, anyone with the LEAF Battery App from Jim/Turbo3, Turtle will be at 10 'Gids (Sim) going faster speeds and at 8 'Gids driving slow speeds.

no, if i do the math if you did 100 miles on 80% (a number i find highly suspect) and now can only do 65 miles on an 80% charge, that would be a 35% capacity loss (65/100 = .65 1 - 0.65 = 35%).... and this is all a guess based off of anecdotal observations..... its like no ones ever heard of confirmation bias . Some one needs to do a double blind

 

[dvlax40]

surfingslovak,

point well taken, i do want to however point out im not trying to be dismissive, just foster a more critical look at how we are measuring this. Its also a reason why Nissans brushes it off, your test environment and controls are critical to getting peer acceptance to your results....

remember the italians that witnessed particles travel faster then the speed of light? lol

 

[TonyWilliams]

It is, however, significantly hotter now than it was when we did the range test...

Time permitting, I'll give it a shot.

You're good to go at 3am-7am:

PHX weather history, June 4, 2013:

Time (MST) Temp.
12:51 AM 90.0 °F
1:51 AM 84.9 °F
2:51 AM 82.9 °F
3:51 AM 82.0 °F
4:51 AM 80.1 °F
5:51 AM 80.1 °F
6:51 AM 81.0 °F
7:51 AM 84.9 °F
8:51 AM 91.0 °F

 

[KJD]

Stoaty,
Ive read through the tests, they great for documentation, but i find them lacking in precision. on the phoenix run, was there any documentation done on ambiant temperatures? battery temperatures? battery discharge rate per mile? average speed? amount of regeneration?
im not saying the tests are wrong, they give us a good insite into battery degradation, but it is somewhat corse in regards to all potential variables.

Please by all means do your own testing publish the results and show us how it is done.

 

[TonyWilliams]

surfingslovak, point well taken, i do want to however point out im not trying to be dismissive, just foster a more critical look at how we are measuring this. Its also a reason why Nissans brushes it off, your test environment and controls are critical to getting peer acceptance to your results....

Why EXACTLY do we care what you think about this? Why are folks wasting their valuable time in persuading you?

Nissan didn't brush this issue off, so actually YOU ARE WRONG. Your "peer acceptance" isn't looking so good.

 

[dvlax40]

It is, however, significantly hotter now than it was when we did the range test...

Time permitting, I'll give it a shot.

You're good to go at 3am-7am:

PHX weather history, June 4, 2013:

Time (MST) Temp.
12:51 AM 90.0 °F
1:51 AM 84.9 °F
2:51 AM 82.9 °F
3:51 AM 82.0 °F
4:51 AM 80.1 °F
5:51 AM 80.1 °F
6:51 AM 81.0 °F
7:51 AM 84.9 °F
8:51 AM 91.0 °F

yuck i will never get over how disgusting it is to have the temp jump 7 degrees in only an hour!

 

[TonyWilliams]

Stoaty,
Ive read through the tests, they great for documentation, but i find them lacking in precision. on the phoenix run, was there any documentation done on ambiant temperatures? battery temperatures? battery discharge rate per mile? average speed? amount of regeneration?
im not saying the tests are wrong, they give us a good insite into battery degradation, but it is somewhat corse in regards to all potential variables.

Please by all means do your own testing publish the results and show us how it is done.

I love these "experts" who can't even read. He knows it isn't right, but doesn't even know what it says!!! Yep, chumps like this are a dime a dozen. We're just a bunch of farmers down here in Phoenix... please, oh GREAT ONE, school us with your massive knowledge.

:roll:

 

[dvlax40]

surfingslovak, point well taken, i do want to however point out im not trying to be dismissive, just foster a more critical look at how we are measuring this. Its also a reason why Nissans brushes it off, your test environment and controls are critical to getting peer acceptance to your results....

Why EXACTLY do we care what you think about this? Why are folks wasting their valuable time in persuading you?

Nissan didn't brush this issue off, so actually YOU ARE WRONG. Your "peer acceptance" isn't looking so good.

Tony,

they bought back the worst, extended the battery warranty ( but just enough to not really help) and have a small disclaimer buried in the contract about warm weather. As i recall their efforts were not met with much enthusiasm from people that actually purchased the cars

seriously, i get it, some of you did the test, im not saying it was a bad test, stop making it personal. Is there wrong with increased or extended testing under more exacting circumstances?

 

[dvlax40]

Stoaty,
Ive read through the tests, they great for documentation, but i find them lacking in precision. on the phoenix run, was there any documentation done on ambiant temperatures? battery temperatures? battery discharge rate per mile? average speed? amount of regeneration?
im not saying the tests are wrong, they give us a good insite into battery degradation, but it is somewhat corse in regards to all potential variables.

Please by all means do your own testing publish the results and show us how it is done.

I love these "experts" who can't even read. He knows it isn't right, but doesn't even know what it says!!! Yep, chumps like this are a dime a dozen. We're just a bunch of farmers down here in Phoenix... please, oh GREAT ONE, school us with your massive knowledge.

:roll:

Seriously, why are you so upset with a dialog? Do you not see i am from phoenix as well? Can you really not see im trying to expand off the excellent work you've already done?

 

[TonyWilliams]

The LEAF Battery app is the only effective way to know when turtle is getting close and if you have enough juice to get to your destination.

Uh? Any of the Gidmeters do just fine.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I love these "experts" who can't even read. He knows it isn't right, but doesn't even know what it says!!! Yep, chumps like this are a dime a dozen. We're just a bunch of farmers down here in Phoenix... please, oh GREAT ONE, school us with your massive knowledge.

:roll:

Seriously, why are you so upset with a dialog? Do you not see i am from phoenix as well? Can you really not see im trying to expand off the excellent work you've already done?

Seriously, I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning for engaging you, but to me, you sound just like the "experts" we had last summer who know everything, and did nothing but complain. My favorite one lost a capacity bar on his car... ya, we don't hear much from him anymore.

Anyway, here's the deal. YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE.

By suggesting that nobody knew the ambient temperature tells me that. Why don't you go back and review what has been done, and then get back with us with how you might improve that.

Here's where you can start:

Planning for September 15, 2012 range test in Phoenix

Phoenix Range Test, Sept 15, 2012

LEAF-S San Diego Range Test on Feb 22, 2013

March 8, 2013 side by side 2012 vs 2013 range test


Then, tell me what this is:

 

[dvlax40]

I love these "experts" who can't even read. He knows it isn't right, but doesn't even know what it says!!! Yep, chumps like this are a dime a dozen. We're just a bunch of farmers down here in Phoenix... please, oh GREAT ONE, school us with your massive knowledge.

:roll:

Seriously, why are you so upset with a dialog? Do you not see i am from phoenix as well? Can you really not see im trying to expand off the excellent work you've already done?

Seriously, I know I'm going to hate myself in the morning for engaging you, but to me, you sound just like the "experts" we had last summer who know everything, and did nothing but complain. My favorite one lost a capacity bar on his car... ya, we don't hear much from him anymore.

Anyway, here's the deal. YOU DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE.

By suggesting that nobody knew the ambient temperature tells me that. Why don't you go back and review what has been done, and then get back with us with how you might improve that.

Tony,

I never suggested no one knew the temperature, I did not see it in the wiki and was curious. I feel that my questions are coming off as sarcasm and that is not my intent. I really DO want to know all of the data, because there was some i didnt see in the chart but i knew must have been recorded.

Like many in AZ, i know that i will one day have a bar loss, im ok with that. But that wont stop my curiosity to want to know more about it. I appreciate the work you have done, its invaluable to the community

 

[TonyWilliams]

Tony,

I never suggested no one knew the temperature, I did not see it in the wiki and was curious. I feel that my questions are coming off as sarcasm and that is not my intent. I really DO want to know all of the data, because there was some i didnt see in the chart but i knew must have been recorded.

Here's where you can start:

Planning for September 15, 2012 range test in Phoenix

Phoenix Range Test, Sept 15, 2012

LEAF-S San Diego Range Test on Feb 22, 2013

March 8, 2013 side by side 2012 vs 2013 range test

 

[dvlax40]

Tony,

I never suggested no one knew the temperature, I did not see it in the wiki and was curious. I feel that my questions are coming off as sarcasm and that is not my intent. I really DO want to know all of the data, because there was some i didnt see in the chart but i knew must have been recorded.

Here's where you can start:

Planning for September 15, 2012 range test in Phoenix

Phoenix Range Test, Sept 15, 2012

LEAF-S San Diego Range Test on Feb 22, 2013

March 8, 2013 side by side 2012 vs 2013 range test

Thank you for the information. My interests lie in the radiant temperature differentials between tarmac/asphalt surfaces vs concrete and the exponential increase in discharge rate of the batter at speeds higher then 60 mph and that the does to the individual battery cells health. I feel that these are two more contributing factors to accelerated battery aging in addition to high ambiant temperature.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Thank you for the information. My interests lie in the radiant temperature differentials between tarmac/asphalt surfaces vs concrete and the exponential increase in discharge rate of the batter at speeds higher then 60 mph and that the does to the individual battery cells health. I feel that these are two more contributing factors to accelerated battery aging in addition to high ambiant temperature.

Well, I think that is completely worthwhile. Those higher discharge rate produces... more heat. Clearly, radiant heat on black asphalt produces beau coup heat.

I now carry a pocket IR temperature tool.

 

[dvlax40]

However, that higher discharge rate produces... more heat. Clearly, radiant heat on black asphalt produces beau coup heat.

I now carry a pocket IR temperature tool.

I agree heat is the enemy. i dont think these cars can really handle long term highway commuting either due to the increased heat. I mean, unless you are in grid lock out west, everyones driving 70+.

I think nissan is going to not only have battery issues, but i believe that extended 65+ driving will eventually start to lead to premature motor failures.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I think nissan is going to not only have battery issues, but i believe that extended 65+ driving will eventually start to lead to premature motor failures.

Nobody has reported a motor failure in a LEAF; not one. I had the Tesla motor assembly replaced in my 6 month old Rav4 EV, however.

I think the motor will continue to be fine in the LEAF.