Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[johndoe74]

Filed a BBB complaint on Nissan and received a call from Nissan. Looks like they are sticking to the script: 20% capacity loss on the first year is normal, too much highway driving is bad, driving high speed is bad, yadda yadda yadda. The rep then said the battery loss should level off. Of course when my wife asked if that is guaranteed, they said no.

are you listed in the WIKI, Did they say at what loss is abnormal. ( is there even a loss rate they said would be a problem.) you never mentioned your mileage. Keep us posted on what the BBB does and says to you. I think we are going to see alot of people use that system.

Yes, I am #27 on the 2-bar lost list. BBB just refer the case to Nissan, don't think it will actually affect the outcome of this complaint.

 

[downeykp]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

The LEAF is well suited for an island like Puerto Rico. It is only 100 miles long and 35 miles wide. The distance between all but a few cities is doable on a single charge even with a wilted LEAF. While PR is hot, it is not a desert climate. How many days does PR have that average over 95 degrees?

How hot in regards to 95 degrees, about 10 months of the year. The car will sell for mid to upper 40k due to import tariff on top of the tt&l fees. A lot of the in between towns roads are up and down hills which will reduce range somewhat. The cost of electricity is ridiculously high and salaries are low to make it a niche car and not affordable to the masses. The big problem I see, is building the charging station infrastructure since everything is built out of concrete, you can imagine the cost to tearing up roads and pavement to install the units; This will cost money that the government does not have due to poor economy and always on brink of bankruptcy. Unless they can get the U.S. government to give them money, I don't know how fast it will get built.

I talked to my cousin in January when I got my Leaf and he sounded interested but, when I told him the cost plus the fact that you need to plug to recharge at home, that made it not affordable for him at this time. His drive to the toll road station that he manages is 45 miles from home and a charging station would be needed. I explain that his fast as hell driving style would also have to change in order to make it to the station.

Ian B

There is a tariff? Puerto Rico is a US protectorate. Like a state without statehood. There aren't any tariffs in the rest of the US.
Puerto Rico is not any hotter than Honolulu or Kailua Kona, so there should not be any heat issues there.

 

[Weatherman]

Puerto Rico is not any hotter than Honolulu or Kailua Kona, so there should not be any heat issues there.

Well, lower elevations in Puerto Rico (where most people live) certainly stay warmer for a longer period of time than Hong Kong, and there has already been a report of battery capacity bar loss from an owner over there.

 

[vrwl]

I talked to my cousin in January when I got my Leaf and he sounded interested but, when I told him the cost plus the fact that you need to plug to recharge at home, that made it not affordable for him at this time. His drive to the toll road station that he manages is 45 miles from home and a charging station would be needed. I explain that his fast as hell driving style would also have to change in order to make it to the station.

Ian B

Ian, you don't have to have a special plug to recharge, I just use the unit that came with the car and plug it into a 110 outlet in my garage. If he has a regular 110 plug available to him at his work location, he could use it to charge his car while he's at work too.

 

[spooka]

Apparently Henry VIII has taken command at Nissan Corporate

http://green.autoblog.com/2012/10/03/nissan-leaf-spokesman-mark-perry-retire-during-troubling-times/

The first head to roll...

 

[mwalsh]

The first head to roll...

Bollocks. Or so everyone I've talked to at Nissan says.

 

[wiltingleaf]

Filed a BBB complaint on Nissan and received a call from Nissan. Looks like they are sticking to the script: 20% capacity loss on the first year is normal, too much highway driving is bad, driving high speed is bad, yadda yadda yadda. The rep then said the battery loss should level off. Of course when my wife asked if that is guaranteed, they said no.

Have the BBB send it to arbitration. That is the next step. Let the arbitrator determine whether 20% loss in 1 year is gradual or not. I'm pretty sure that will come out in your favor.

 

[spike09]

Lack of active cooling is an oversimplification.

Why isn't every LEAF driven in hot weather climates losing range at relatively equal rates? Even ones with similar driving and charging patterns are not showing similar capacity loss.

It is not oversimplification; it is the main reason why some cars experiencing early capacity loss. There could be other minor reasons.
Not all the cars are at the same age, same mileage, same charging and driving patterns . The lack of active cooling in hot climates accelerates the degradation of the battery. We did not have this problem last summer when most of the packs were fresh. Next summer you will see more of it.

Or, all the cars with early capacity loss are equipped with defective batteries. After the Casa Grande test, Nissan said all the tested batteries are performing within specifications.

The fact that only 108 LEAF so far are having this problem could mean that something else in the car is causing the problem (like the $20 Hall-effect current sensor).

Not having active cooling is an obvious solution. But so is adjusting the LEAF software to limit the Battery SOC to only 25% to 75%. And that would not even require a modification to the car.

Nissan might be much more agreeable to replacing battery packs for free once the Tennessee plant is up and running before years end. That is a better solution than buying back the whole car (unless of course the owner want out completely). Leasing instead of owning is a solution that some have already done on their own.

Another solution is having a large enough battery pack to make range loss unnoticeable like they will offer on the Infinity EV.

Installing as many charging stations as there are gas stations around Arizona is another possible solution. That would put to good use the 10,000 Nissan QC Chargers they have allotted to the US.

There are several factors that cause battery degradation. The WIKI section dedicated to Battery capacity loss http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss indicates the two main sources of battery capacity loss are Calendar Loss and Cycling Loss.

Calendar Loss is dependent on 4 factors (Mean temperature, Standard deviation of temperature, Mean state of charge (SOC) and Standard deviation of SOC). Temperature has a much greater effect on battery life but SOC does have an effect. Cycling Loss depends on how the battery is charged and discharged (How Often, How Fast, Depth of Discharge, etc). These effects are seen as capacity fade and capacity retention.

The Li-MN type of Li-ion batteries in the LEAF is the most heat sensitive of all Li-Ion types. Switch to A123 Nanophosphate EXT Batteries and there is no need for active cooling since they are impervious to heat and cold.


When I joined this forum I noticed there were members who used their LEAF signature to display their reservation date, order date and finally the delivery date of their LEAF. Some signatures got more elaborate as time went by, adding info like what else you drive and if you are a Zero emission driver by charging with Solar Energy.

We have now come to a point in time where I encourage those with a signature to add their months of ownership, lease vs own, total miles driven, Overall miles/kWh (from CarWings), and number of capacity bars. And for those who do not know you can add your location and VIN into your forum profile.


L1 or L2 charger, 80% or 100% are but a few other details to include if you choose. Have fun with the 255 character limit!

If you would rather not change or reveal anything about yourself to the forum with your signature please do not be offended by my suggestion.

 

[Herm]

I encourage everyone to post their months of ownership, total miles and number of capacity bars info into their signature. And of course their location and VIN in their profile.[/b]

also your charging behavior, up to 100%, 80% or lower and how long the car spends at 100%.. your long term efficiency would be nice also

 

[cwerdna]

There are only 108 that we know of. I'm sure there are others out there that have been unreported to the Wiki.

Regarding whether the problem could lie in the Hall Effect sensor, whether the car is limiting how much charge the car can take in hot weather, etc. all points back to the lack of/poor communication from Nissan.

Instead of saying that this is normal, 7500 miles/year is the expected annual mileage, etc. they need to tell us a whole bunch of things such as:
- What those capacity bars actually represent and why the table was removed from the service manual?
- Will any capacity bars come back?
- Is the car limiting charge/discharge in hot weather?
- What's the range loss or loss in some static test (e.g. using HVAC at max, high beams on, etc.) in some of the cars (such as the ones taken to Casa Grande) vs. a brand new control car?
- Is there some other problem like a Hall Effect sensor problem?
- Why is it that high mileage folks in mild climates like in WA state (like the Taylor Seafood guy) aren't experiencing this, despite high mileage? (I think the answer's obvious... but we need to hear it from them.)

I'm sure there are more things they need to come clean about, but this is what I thought of OTOH.

They of course should specify what the remedy (e.g. buyback, converting purchase to lease, ability to terminate lease w/o paying lease termination penalties, stop sale and lease only for hot states, capacity warranty, battery replacement program once beyond a certain % of loss, etc.) is for all hot climate folks (AZ and TX, mainly) beyond the lucky 7.

 

[spooka]

Filed a BBB complaint on Nissan and received a call from Nissan. Looks like they are sticking to the script: 20% capacity loss on the first year is normal, too much highway driving is bad, driving high speed is bad, yadda yadda yadda. The rep then said the battery loss should level off. Of course when my wife asked if that is guaranteed, they said no.

are you listed in the WIKI, Did they say at what loss is abnormal. ( is there even a loss rate they said would be a problem.) you never mentioned your mileage. Keep us posted on what the BBB does and says to you. I think we are going to see alot of people use that system.

Yes, I am #27 on the 2-bar lost list. BBB just refer the case to Nissan, don't think it will actually affect the outcome of this complaint.

Did they request that you bring your LEAF in for "testing"? They asked me and I am debating if I want them to have access to my car. They also stated to me that 20% in a year is normal (notice they are not saying gradual) so if I bring it in and they "say" that I am at blah blah percent, what will that mean after they've already said that the 5 year milestone of 80% in only 1 year is normal? They won't even disclose what they are downloading off the car. Show up, give us your info, get nothing for your effort. My opinion (for my case) is to probably just get the test done, have them tell me to pound sand and get it to arbitration quicker. I think the "good will" pipeline is turned off and Nissan will not be voluntarily repurchasing any more Lemon LEAFs anytime soon. Using BBB with arbitration is the best route to take, IMO.

 

[JRP3]

The fact that only 108 LEAF so far are having this problem could mean that something else in the car is causing the problem (like the $20 Hall-effect current sensor).

There is actual capacity loss in the packs in AZ, that is not caused by a sensor. Yes the sensor could be exaggerating the displayed loss, and why Nissan resets the capacity bars after testing, but there is still real world capacity loss, not just a faulty reading.

The Li-MN type of Li-ion batteries in the LEAF is the most heat sensitive of all Li-Ion types. Switch to A123 Nanophosphate EXT Batteries and there is no need for active cooling since they are impervious to heat and cold.

Which would imply that you think the cause of the capacity reduction of the LEAF in hot climates is temperature effects on the specific LEAF chemistry, not a hall effect sensor.
As a side note the cost of the EXT cells is probably much much higher than what Nissan is using now.

 

[MrIanB]

Ok, just did a 100% charge and here are my results:

Age of car- 10 months old
Mileage- 6300 miles
A/C usage- maybe twice, temp outside nice that did not need it
Driving speeds- 37-57 mph
location- Austin, Texas
Battery capacity- Still showing 12 bars
Car miles per kw- dash 5.1, Carwings 5.2
Battery bars- 6, never changes even though car always in garage since I work from home
Total range on this charge- 88 miles driven
Low battery warning- at 74 miles driven
Very low battery warning- never came on, still had 1 bar left and 4 miles in the GOM flashing
Terrain driven- mostly flat with small inclines
Outside temperature- 80-85 degrees with small wind

How am I doing??

Thanks in advance,

Ian B

 

[opossum]

My opinion (for my case) is to probably just get the test done, have them tell me to pound sand and get it to arbitration quicker.

No one seems to have the secret decoder ring yet, but I agree with the full court press idea. There are 11 wiki-documented cases of 3 or more capacity bars lost (all in AZ). One was an early lease termination and only 2 others have been bought back. Based on anecdotal evidence, it seems that the owners of these 3 cars (since Scott's fees were reimbursed) were some of the most proactive of the 11. So I would definitely advocate documenting as many trips to Nissan dealerships as possible, while working the BBB and Nissan dispute resolution process in parallel.

By the way, I wouldn't call it the "lucky 7," given that only a few of the Casa Grande 7 have received a resolution.

 

[leafwing]

How am I doing??

You are doing great. Enjoy your LEAF.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Car miles per kw- dash 5.1
Total range on this charge- 88 miles driven
Low battery warning- at 74 miles driven
Very low battery warning- never came on, still had 1 bar left and 4 miles in the GOM flashing
Terrain driven- mostly flat with small inclines
Outside temperature- 80-85 degrees with small wind

How am I doing?

5.1 * 21 = 107.1 miles

We have to do a lot of guessing, but you drove 14 miles from LBW at 5.1 (since you weren't at a steady speed, we don't really know), I'll just say you were 1 mile from VLB. I'll give you 7 additional miles to turtle, and get 88 + 1 + 7 = 96 mile range. Since the AC was on, we really don't know how much power was consumed there.

Anyway, 96 / 107 = about 90% capacity. As Nissan would say, "normal" for first year drop, and the same as my April 2012 manufactured LEAF.

 

[MrIanB]

Car miles per kw- dash 5.1
Total range on this charge- 88 miles driven
Low battery warning- at 74 miles driven
Very low battery warning- never came on, still had 1 bar left and 4 miles in the GOM flashing
Terrain driven- mostly flat with small inclines
Outside temperature- 80-85 degrees with small wind

How am I doing?

5.1 * 21 = 107.1 miles

We have to do a lot of guessing, but you drove 14 miles from LBW at 5.1 (since you weren't at a steady speed, we don't really know), I'll just say you were 1 mile from VLB. I'll give you 7 additional miles to turtle, and get 88 + 1 + 7 = 96 mile range. Since the AC was on, we really don't know how much power was consumed there.

Anyway, 96 / 107 = about 90% capacity. As Nissan would say, "normal" for first year drop, and the same as my April 2012 manufactured LEAF.[/quote

Thanks Tony and Leafwing. Since I don't have any tools to measure wanted to know how my battery is currently doing. Will save numbers and run another test in six months to see how I am doing unless I notice any missing bars.

God I love this car, hope everyone having issues gets them resolved to their satisfaction, Nissan becomes more proactive and keep these lease offers that I think will break 1,000 sales for October.

Ian B

 

[azdre]

Did they request that you bring your LEAF in for "testing"? They asked me and I am debating if I want them to have access to my car. They also stated to me that 20% in a year is normal (notice they are not saying gradual) so if I bring it in and they "say" that I am at blah blah percent, what will that mean after they've already said that the 5 year milestone of 80% in only 1 year is normal? They won't even disclose what they are downloading off the car. Show up, give us your info, get nothing for your effort. My opinion (for my case) is to probably just get the test done, have them tell me to pound sand and get it to arbitration quicker. I think the "good will" pipeline is turned off and Nissan will not be voluntarily repurchasing any more Lemon LEAFs anytime soon. Using BBB with arbitration is the best route to take, IMO.

I'm pretty sure that in order to get a resolution, you are going to have to give them a reasonable number of attempts to evaluate and fix the car. Filing a complaint to the 800 number (or even in writing) and asking them to do something based on words is never going to work and will delay the whole process. Randy, Scott, and I got resolution because we were going to the dealer at every milestone, calling Nissan, escalating to dealer GMs, following the dispute resolution process so that they had a reasonable amount of time to respond to our exact situation. I very much doubt Nissan is going to pull a battery warranty out of their hat because a few of us went through this. It will probably take either years in a lawsuit or way more than a few 3 bar losers before they change this course they are set on.

I was very hesitant to turn over my car for the Casa Grande testing. I was sure they were going to use it as a way to blame me for our problems. Well... It turned out I was right on that front, but it still worked out in the end.

 

[Joeviocoe]

Lack of active cooling is an oversimplification.

Why isn't every LEAF driven in hot weather climates losing range at relatively equal rates? Even ones with similar driving and charging patterns are not showing similar capacity loss.

It is not oversimplification; it is the main reason why some cars experiencing early capacity loss. There could be other minor reasons.
Not all the cars are at the same age, same mileage, same charging and driving patterns . The lack of active cooling in hot climates accelerates the degradation of the battery. We did not have this problem last summer when most of the packs were fresh. Next summer you will see more of it.

Or, all the cars with early capacity loss are equipped with defective batteries. After the Casa Grande test, Nissan said all the tested batteries are performing within specifications.

The high and constant heat of Arizona can affect the Leaf battery in other was, that active cooling might not even solve. Which is why the claims of "no active cooling = problems" is considered an oversimplification.

The active cooling for EVs (including the Chevy Volt) only runs when either (1) plugged in, or (2) driving....
1) EVs today are typically only plugged in after 8pm when outside temperatures are much lower than daytime highs. The Volt's active thermal management systems (TMS) only runs if the temps are above 104F when plugged in. They are unplugged shortly after sunrise so the driver can drive to work.
2) Driving only accounts for about 1 or maybe 2 hours a day. And really, only the afternoon drive from work to home will experience high temps.
So, TMS doesn't run very often for a normal commuter.

Now, most EV drivers cannot charge at work. So the Leaf (and Volt) sits all day, under a hot sun, for 6 - 8 hours.. with temps exceeding 100F during the summer. http://tinyurl.com/Leaf-BadBatteryMap" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Active thermal management cannot save the battery from this, since it won't be able to run during this time.

**The Volt may not be showing similar degradation because of various factors that include a MUCH higher reserve/buffer of unused capacity. GM did this because longevity of the pack was more important that Electric range since the Volt has a gas engine.**

According to the wiki page:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mean Temperatures over overall, is a main factor in reducing calendar life as we are seeing. Not so much the short term spikes in temperatures during driving... but the long term high temps of parking on blacktop during the work day.

I think that active cooling may mitigate the capacity loss somewhat, but it certainly won't be a silver bullet that avoids the calamity we are seeing in Arizona, Texas and SoCal.

 

[Joeviocoe]

The Leaf is scheduled to be available in Puerto Rico this year and let me tell you, it is hotter than hell down there year round and there is zero infrastructure for electric vehicles at this time. Don't know where the government is gonna get money to do that as they are broke. Traveling down there this Saturday for 2 weeks and will report back on any Leaf sightings. I think this car is not fit for the island of Puerto Rico if the batteries can not take the heat but, we will see.

Ian B

Tropics and Deserts are Very different. I haven't heard of many problems with Leaf batteries in Florida, Georgia, and other places in the HOT, but HUMID areas.
The humidity really help moderate the temps, even though humans feel hotter when the humidity is high, equipment seems to hate the dry heat more.