Charger Efficiency and Battery Size and bars

[Jimcado]

2011 Leaf Owner
#1420 - 35,500 miles, SoCal original car per Carfax
Bought less than Two years ago from Nissan Dealership
$1600 Extended Service Contract (in writing from Dealer) 84 month extension, extended to 114,000 miles dealer repeats that it applies to battery replacement.
Capacity problems after 10 months.
Currently at 9 bars

What is the efficiency of the onboard charger at 240 volts? If 17.03 kWh is metered at the wall using a California engineer calibrated grade meter using level 2 at 240 volts at 80 degrees outdoors on sunny California day, how much charge goes to the battery? (Starting at 1/4 mile driven past second low battery warning up to 100% full charge). The third-party California Consumer Affairs licensed engineer testing used 0.85 for energy losses for the onboard charging system in their preliminary report. They based their initial findings strictly using kWh's. This is to avoid going into the cars computer network. The second test is recommended at temps within 5 degrees of original.

First test: battery has 14.48 kWh's capacity remaining.

Second test: TBD. Hopefully in one week, pending weather conditions.

How much actual capacity in kWh's on a new 24 kWh? Is this published?

How are the bars calculated? I've seen the table where first bar at:
1 bar lost - 15% loss of battery capacity
2 bars lost - 21.25 % loss of battery capacity
3 bars lost - 27.5% loss of battery capacity
4 bars lost - 33.75% loss of battery capacity
Is this published by Nissan?

I don't think I would have bought this car had I done more research beyond Consumer Reports. Kinda let down on this right now.

Jade

 

[LeftieBiker]

I think that the answer that best addresses your situation is this: Nissan won't replace the battery until the dash capacity gauge shows 8 bars - not before. They also seemed to have programmed the BMS to not update the capacity in cold weather. Now for the worst news: the capacity warranty ends at 60 months (or 60k miles) after the car was put into service, not at some other date or mileage mentioned in a service contract. The latter is for battery build defects only, not capacity loss from degradation...

 

[Jimcado]

Do you know the answers to the technical questions?

Jade

 

[Firetruck41]

99% the dealer is wrong or doesn't know what they are talking about in regards to the warranty. I haven't heard of an extended warranty that covers battery degradation. It may cover a battery defect, but degradation is not considered a defect.

As far as the battery bars/percentage, that is in line with what I have read here, and I have just experienced my first bar loss at 15% degradation/85% capacity. The only metric that matters for battery degradation replacement, assuming you are within the warranty period (60 mo/60k mi), is the loss of four bars. Unless you can prove their is a manufacturing defect like a dead cell. You should invest $10 in a bluetooth dongle and LEAFspy, that will tell you more about the battery...

 

[LeftieBiker]

How are the bars calculated? I've seen the table where first bar at:
1 bar lost - 15% loss of battery capacity
2 bars lost - 21.25 % loss of battery capacity
3 bars lost - 27.5% loss of battery capacity
4 bars lost - 33.75% loss of battery capacity
Is this published by Nissan?

You need to understand that Leaf Spy was developed - and not by Nissan - in response to Nissan's lack of transparency regarding their battery packs. The Leaf is actually one of the better cars in that it actually shows remaining capacity, at least, but Nissan has nothing to do with Leaf Spy, and they don't talk about anything beyond "bars." I suggest you skim the Leaf Spy topics for more detail. The table you quote is most likely from there, and if so it's accurate.

There was a debate here about Consumer Reports' recommendation - an irresponsible one, IMO - that the the Leaf was a good used car buy - but never mentioning the capacity loss problem.

 

[cwerdna]

How are the bars calculated? I've seen the table where first bar at:
1 bar lost - 15% loss of battery capacity
2 bars lost - 21.25 % loss of battery capacity
3 bars lost - 27.5% loss of battery capacity
4 bars lost - 33.75% loss of battery capacity
Is this published by Nissan?

See http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior, which supposedly came from the Leaf service manual. I believe the table was removed in later revisions or later model years for an unknown reason.

99% the dealer is wrong or doesn't know what they are talking about in regards to the warranty. I haven't heard of an extended warranty that covers battery degradation. It may cover a battery defect, but degradation is not considered a defect.
...
The only metric that matters for battery degradation replacement, assuming you are within the warranty period (60 mo/60k mi), is the loss of four bars. Unless you can prove their is a manufacturing defect like a dead cell. You should invest $10 in a bluetooth dongle and LEAFspy, that will tell you more about the battery...

Agree 100% w/the above.

More details on the capacity warranty at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192.

 

[Jimcado]

So if the battery capacity is at 14.5 kWh's, what is the capacity loss and how many bars should it be?

jade

 

[keydiver]

The original capacity was approx. 22.5 kWh, so you would be right on the verge of losing that critical 9th bar. However, LeafSpy and a Bluetooth dongle will tell you more accurately. The dealer's battery test is worthless, so don't bother taking it to them. If the 9th bar hasn't dropped by 5 years/60,000 miles, they won't help you. Do you know the original in-service date of your Leaf? They should be able to tell you that, or by calling Nissan's Leaf hotline.

 

[Jimcado]

So now after a written new car 84 month extended service warranty from the dealership, I find out that it may be misrepresentation, and I paid extra $1600 on top of about $16,500 for the car, all in an effort to save money and be green. (I am a green leader at the greenest University in the USA). Then I find out that the daily use of a 62 mile round trip and daily charging is actually ruining the battery because of being charged over 80%. Then I find out that after 10 months I can no longer make the daily commute. This is unbelievable. Why didn't Nissan require their dealers to disclose the battery warranty after they were sued for fraud? All they had to do is post the capacity bar liability from the federal lawsuit next to the cars sales sheet to let prospective buyers have an honest disclosure as required by California law?

I smell a second lawsuit coming on! This is unbelievable. If Nissan does not step in to fix this situation, legal action will follow.

jade

 

[DaveEV]

What is the efficiency of the onboard charger at 240 volts? If 17.03 kWh is metered at the wall using a California engineer calibrated grade meter using level 2 at 240 volts at 80 degrees outdoors on sunny California day, how much charge goes to the battery? (Starting at 1/4 mile driven past second low battery warning up to 100% full charge).

I don't see that anyone answered this first question about how many kWh a new car took to charge, but from turtle to 100% it was commonly reported that a new '11-12 LEAF would take about 25 kWh to charge from empty. There may have been a report or two of slightly more than that.

To replicate this you can discharge your battery to turtle safely at your designated charging point by running the heater and defroster at maximum temperature after driving the car as far as you are comfortable before hand.

With a VIN of #1420, you probably only have until late April / early May until the 5-year capacity warranty expires...

 

[LeftieBiker]

So now after a written new car 84 month extended service warranty from the dealership, I find out that it may be misrepresentation, and I paid extra $1600 on top of about $16,500 for the car, all in an effort to save money and be green. (I am a green leader at the greenest University in the USA). Then I find out that the daily use of a 62 mile round trip and daily charging is actually ruining the battery because of being charged over 80%. Then I find out that after 10 months I can no longer make the daily commute. This is unbelievable. Why didn't Nissan require their dealers to disclose the battery warranty after they were sued for fraud? All they had to do is post the capacity bar liability from the federal lawsuit next to the cars sales sheet to let prospective buyers have an honest disclosure as required by California law?

I smell a second lawsuit coming on! This is unbelievable. If Nissan does not step in to fix this situation, legal action will follow.

jade

This is an excellent illustration of what happens when we try to lead the "free market" into doing what's better for the environment by offering them money. Nissan is a builder of Internal Combustion Engine vehicles, and has taken the lead among ICE manufacturers in building EVs primarily because of the financial incentives. The dealership model of selling vehicles, combined with the purely financial interest of the parent company, is pretty much guaranteed to produce this kind of result. People get ripped off while buying cars every hour of every day. In the case of the Leaf you also have to add in the ignorance of the product of the typical Nissan salesperson. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's possible that whoever sold you that extended warranty actually believed that it would apply to capacity. Rather than waste your time and money suing Nissan over this, I suggest you first educate yourself on this issue, and then others. There should be classes on shopping for EVs, hybrids, and other environmentally-marketed products. Informed buyers are a bigger danger to the current system than the occasion individual lawsuit.

(If it makes you feel any better, I have a $14k 2015 Zero SR sitting in my garage that I can't ride. It's a "new" demo bike, and the dealership that sold it to me apparently kept just resetting the error codes it produced, then sold it to me despite my explaining that there is no dealer near me, and I needed a bike in perfect working order. Zero tells me to ship it 120 miles to the nearest dealership, and that they don't deal directly with customers. I'm hoping to sell it now for only a $2k+ loss.)

 

[DaveEV]

This is an excellent illustration of what happens when we try to lead the "free market" into doing what's better for the environment by offering them money.

I fail to see this connection and also quickly moves this topic into politics, so let's just drop any further discussion now unless you wish to continue in the Politics & Other Controversial Topics sub-forum.

 

[Jimcado]

Thanks for the battery info. The 14.5 kWh's was measured just prior to turtle mode. Good idea for getting more accurate on the next test. I'll pass that on to the testing company.

If the warranty was good for only 23 months from purchase date, then why didn't Nissan require the dealer to disclose this info in California? Why would the average person pay so much money for a car covered by a warranty for 23 months that was developed by a federal fraud case? Why did the dealer sell me a n extended new car warranty for 84 months from date of sale, and 114,000 miles and disclose that it covers everything to to with the battery? In California there are laws to protect consumers from this kind of lack of disclosure.

Fortunately, I've been sponsored for free by a California Consumer organization to get all the paperwork in order.

Thank you,

jade

 

[cwerdna]

Why did the dealer sell me a n extended new car warranty for 84 months from date of sale, and 114,000 miles and disclose that it covers everything to to with the battery?

What does the extended warranty say in writing with respect to battery replacement due to ("gradual") capacity loss?

I can't speak to California disclosure laws. As you know, govt tend to move rather slowly vs. technology, so if a unique type of warranty (e.g. capacity warranty for plug-in vehicles) was missed/not thought of....

What's even more insidious and there are likely no laws anywhere is when someone unscrupulous upstream resets the BMS/LBC so that a car temporarily shows more capacity bars than it had before. AFAIK, the only time it should be done is if the battery pack is replaced. We've heard of at least a few cases of this already. Example below:
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/11/buyers-beware-this-is-must-read.html
http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2014/12/update-saga-of-vin-222-resolved.html

 

[LeftieBiker]

As for why they sold you that warranty: extended warranties are big money-makers for dealerships, and that's all they care about. People buying Leafs are regularly - even usually - offered service contracts that primarily cover things like oil changes, transmission fluid changes - things that don't even apply to the Leaf. That just means more money for the dealership. The dealership model of selling vehicles really is about as close as you can get to a criminal enterprise without actually breaking the law. Did you know that there is no "buyer remorse" period if you lease a car? If they can get you to sign the lease, and it isn't actually fraudulent in content wording, they can charge whatever they want and you can't back out when you find out you've been taken for the proverbial ride.

(The above is not a political statement, Drees, but a statement of the reality of how car dealerships operate.)

 

[Jimcado]

Follow-up question: is the 25 kWh's actual battery capacity?

 

[cwerdna]

Follow-up question: is the 25 kWh's actual battery capacity?

'11 thru '15 Leaf have a 24 kWh battery but not all of it is accessible. It's usually quoted as being ~21 to 22 kWh accessible when new.

Some of the Leaf test results at https://avt.inl.gov/vehicle-type/bev and some of the results by Googling for site:.gov leaf testing nissan may help, in particular any PDFs.

If you're talking about drees' comment about 25 kWh, it's because there are losses when charging (e.g. in the OBC, to run pumps, resistance in the battery, wiring, connectors, etc.) Not all the energy coming out of the wall makes it into the battery.

 

[cwerdna]

However, LeafSpy and a Bluetooth dongle will tell you more accurately. The dealer's battery test is worthless, so don't bother taking it to them. If the 9th bar hasn't dropped by 5 years/60,000 miles, they won't help you. Do you know the original in-service date of your Leaf? They should be able to tell you that, or by calling Nissan's Leaf hotline.

OP, all of the above is important and correct.

There's no point in screwing around in trying to meter how much is coming out of the EVSE, asking about user accessible capacity, etc.

I already pointed you to the capacity warranty verbiage. If you don't lose your 4th capacity bar by 5 year or 60K miles, whichever comes first from original in service date, you're almost totally SOL, unless that extended warranty specifically states in writing the capacity warranty is extended too. A few folks have been able to get Nissan to replace the battery slightly after the expiration such as after arbitration (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=456848#p456848). I don't have a definitive record of each and every case and what was involved.

If you happen to lose that 4th bar and you are close to 60K miles (and still before 5 years), Stop! Get it towed to the dealer so that you don't pass 60K miles!

 

[Jimcado]

it's too amazing that in California where warranty information is required to be posted along with the vehicle information and description, that this could happen. Up until about two weeks ago I didn't know what a capacity bar was. This has been very interesting reading these responses and helpful info. I don't think the disclosure of warranty requirement is meet Without posting a clear statement of battery capacity limited warranty developed by the government during the Nissan fraud settlement. Just like a termite disclosure is a basic legal requirement along with a lead paint statement in a real estate transaction. Too Amazing to me. Then to add a new car extended service contract for 2 thousand parts on a Franklin letterhead, wow, you can't make this stuff up. What were they hiding? Add to that Franklin said they have not seen my contract and they would not honor the extended service warranty. Why a new car warranty on a Franklin letterhead?
I may understand if it were a third-party insurance warranty for a few hundred dollars, but this is too incredible.

All they had to do was be honest and I would have bought a Honda?

The odd part about the accuracy of battery capacity and possible reprogramming of the indicator lights as in 222, Its just incredible.

Thank you,

jade