Charging Costs

[UBUYGAS]

I just received an email from my Electric company that stated that they were decreasing my electric plan. It went from $178 a month to $163!

I'm in NJ and my average cost is 10.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

 

[epirali]

I just received an email from my Electric company that stated that they were decreasing my electric plan. It went from $178 a month to $163!

I'm in NJ and my average cost is 10.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

Here in Maryland when 3rd part suppliers became available I switched from the BG&E provided to a third party supplier, they use more green energy and I saved 4 cents per KWHr. Do you have same available?

 

[dgpcolorado]

For whatever reason people who listen to anti-EV media tend to ask about your electric bills...

And the reason they do that is because they assume that their high gasoline costs will be similar to the higher electricity costs of EV users. So, the EV driver is just transferring the cost of buying gas to higher electric bills, right? The idea that an EV is much more efficient than an ICE car is not something most people are aware of, especially those who buy into anti-EV propaganda.


Like some others above, I find that the easiest way to explain fuel cost for an EV is in cents per mile. Although I pay zero because I have solar panels, at my local electric rate it would be 3.4¢/mile [13.77¢/kWh, 4 miles/kWh]. At current gas prices here (about $3.23/gallon) a 50 mpg Prius would be 6.5¢/mile. A 20 mpg car would be 16¢/mile. Those sort of numbers put the fuel cost of my LEAF in perspective for those who are interested in it.

 

[goaliepride]

I pay zero because I have solar panels

Sorry but this (likely) isn't true. You pay/paid for the panels. To figure this in properly you would take the total cost minus how much they save over their estimated life (hey it's not an exact science) dividing that by the estimated life. Figure it yearly, monthly, weekly, whatever, but that's a cost. If you expect the panels to fully pay themselves off, well then you were right, it's free.

 

[dgpcolorado]

I pay zero because I have solar panels

Sorry but this (likely) isn't true. You pay/paid for the panels. To figure this in properly you would take the total cost minus how much they save over their estimated life (hey it's not an exact science) dividing that by the estimated life. Figure it yearly, monthly, weekly, whatever, but that's a cost. If you expect the panels to fully pay themselves off, well then you were right, it's free.

Yes, it depends on how one looks at it. I budgeted the addition to my solar array as part of the cost of my car, except that the array will likely last longer and be used for the next EV as well — assuming I don't croak or have to move before then. Also, I can't really "unbuy" the panels so they are what they are.

So far as cost-effectiveness of solar panels goes, my view, as stated before here at MNL, is that "people buy less useful toys, do they not?" There are people here who buy BMWs or Teslas and yet some are going to quibble about my tiny 1470 watt solar panel purchase? Why do solar panels have to be viewed with green eye shade firmly in place yet most other things get a free ride?

Regardless, since my solar panels covered 105% of my LEAF and household electricity usage, my marginal fuel cost for the LEAF is zero and my electricity bills consist of nothing but the monthly service charge.

Again, it depends on how one looks at it. I think that one reason that people try to get solar panels to pay for themselves is that their electricity usage is so gigantic that the solar installation is viewed as a major capital expenditure. They need a reason to justify it. Before LEAF my electricity usage was about 4.8 kWh/day on average (more in winter less in summer). By the standards of some households, that is almost a rounding error.

 

[goaliepride]

dgpcolorado. I totally agree and would not dog your panels purchase, as a former business major it just stuck out that you said free when I wouldn't consider it as such. Hell me getting the SV over the S WAS buying toys =)

 

[Wennfred]

I pay zero because I have solar panels

Sorry but this (likely) isn't true. You pay/paid for the panels. To figure this in properly you would take the total cost minus how much they save over their estimated life (hey it's not an exact science) dividing that by the estimated life. Figure it yearly, monthly, weekly, whatever, but that's a cost. If you expect the panels to fully pay themselves off, well then you were right, it's free.

SDG&E cuts me a Check for $500 - $700 every April for all of the excess solar generated power my system produces, they pay me, I don't pay them. 6.8KwH Solar system installed April 07, Zero's my annual usage. SDG&E started buying back excess power in 2011 after the Feds came down on them for not meeting the 20% Alternative power they had to meet daily. If my wife didn't use the A/C 24/7, I could see a sweet $1000.00 check from them this April, So the System pays for it's self and the Leaf pretty much runs free at this house.


Fred / Sunny San Diego

 

[Klayfish]

Out of curiousity, what was the layout to install a solar panel system on your home? I've never really looked into it, but have lots of roof that gets lots of sun exposure.

 

[dgpcolorado]

dgpcolorado. I totally agree and would not dog your panels purchase, as a former business major it just stuck out that you said free when I wouldn't consider it as such. Hell me getting the SV over the S WAS buying toys =)

Truth be told, I really did deduct the cost of my solar panels from the "Car Replacement" line item in my budget (yes, I keep a meticulous budget to help me survive, after early-retiring at age 45 many years ago). So, I really do consider them a part of the LEAF purchase. The big expense was the cost of the LEAF, tax credits notwithstanding. Ordinarily I would have just purchased an inexpensive used car and driven it to death: much more cost-effective than any new car. But I've wanted an EV for many years.

I am keenly aware that my remote rural living is much less efficient — albeit much more pleasant — than urban living with access to public transportation and bicycle distance from many destinations. Here I deal with sixty mile grocery runs and eighteen mile trips to the library or post office. The obvious solution was to drive an EV and run it on sunpower. Not as efficient as no car plus public transportation and bicycle in a city, but better than burning oil to get anywhere and everywhere, as is usually the case for rural living.

So, my solar panels are a part of my EV in my view, not an "investment" in my house (they have no real estate value in my county according to my car pool partner, an appraiser with the assessor, who has studied it).

 

[Wennfred]

Out of curiousity, what was the layout to install a solar panel system on your home? I've never really looked into it, but have lots of roof that gets lots of sun exposure.

"46" 170 watt Sharp Panels 2 Strings 2 Xantrax 3.8KW inverters 22 panels facing east & 24 panels facing south. Both at 18 inches pitch. Went with the 22 panels on the east to not change the looks of the front of the house. Commercial size 200 Amp power panel.

Go online and do your research as panel prices have dropped big time from 850.00 back in 2007 to today at 325.00 each depending on the wattage.

Fred

 

[Wennfred]

they have no real estate value in my county according to my car pool partner, an appraiser with the assessor, who has studied it).

Solar Panels do degrade and after 7 years or so they are worth 1/2 the price. But it's still a great selling point and I have read of people getting between 5k - 20k more on the home price due to it. Now with EV being the latest and greatest thing since cool whip, you can say your home is EV ready.


Fred

 

[Gearscout]

Reading through the posts, I went out and checked my own rates here in Georgia:

WINTER - October through May SUMMER - June through September
First 650 kWh: 5.3312¢ per kWh First 650 kWh: 5.3312¢ per kWh
650-1000 kWh: 4.5743¢ per kWh 650-1000 kWh: 8.8620¢ per kWh
Over 1000 kWh: 4.4904¢ per kWh Over 1000 kWh: 9.1582¢ per kWh

My commute average on streets/highways is 4.2 miles per kWh (Tested several times)

Winter -Averaging around 1200 miles per month at 4.2 miles/kWh = 286 kWH * .0457 $ per kWh = $13.07
(I calculated at the median 650-1000 kWh because sometimes we go over.)

Summertime is a much different picture, but still excellent IMHO:
Averaging around 1200 miles per month at 4.2 miles/kWh = 286 kWH * .091582 $ per kWH = $26.19
(I calculated at the highest rate because, with air conditioning, we always top 1k kWh.)

My average gas bill for my ICE was around $225 per month.

Georgia has some of the lowest electricity prices in the country. And the State of Georgia offers a very nice $5,000 state income tax credit for up to 20% of the cost of a PEV.

 

[planet4ever]

Winter -Averaging around 1200 miles per month at 4.2 miles/kWh = 286 kWH * .0457 $ per kWh = $13.07

That 4.2 m/kWh is calculated by the car based on energy coming out of the battery. You buy electricity based on what comes out of the wall, which is rather different. You lose about 15% going from the wall to the battery; 25% if you charge at 120v. So, assuming you are charging at 240v, your real cost is about $15.40/month. But that's still very good.

Ray

 

[Gearscout]

Ray, that's a good point.

I had been charging almost exclusively at 240v (EVSE upgrade) but decided to preserve the battery a bit by charging more often at 80%/120v.

Even with an additional 25% it's not much -- depending on how much that really preserves battery life.

I would think level 2 charging at 80% is almost as good for the battery -- but we're talking something less than $4 a month savings.

Hmmm.

Is there an inexpensive way to measure the electricity that's actually coming through the charging circuit? Mine is isolated and should be easy to gauge.

Thanks, again.

 

[CMYK4Life]

I pay $20-$30 more a month than I did before the Leaf.

Wouldnt have done this otherwise.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...I had been charging almost exclusively at 240v (EVSE upgrade) but decided to preserve the battery a bit by charging more often at 80%/120v.

Even with an additional 25% it's not much -- depending on how much that really preserves battery life.

I would think level 2 charging at 80% is almost as good for the battery -- but we're talking something less than $4 a month savings.

Charging at Level 1 versus Level 2 should make no difference to battery life. Both are rather slow and cause little heating of the battery.

Is there an inexpensive way to measure the electricity that's actually coming through the charging circuit? Mine is isolated and should be easy to gauge.

There are a number of devices that can be used to to monitor energy usage "at the wall", such as "The Energy Detective" (TED). One of the simplest and least expensive is to install a refurbished utility meter. DaveinOlyWA used to have a blog post describing it in detail but blogs seem to have disappeared. Still, it is pretty straightforward and is a DIY for someone comfortable with working on electrical lines and outlets. Refurb "EZ Read" meters can be had for about $50 from Hialeah Meter; you need both the meter and the base it fits into. My installation:

 

[Petecomp1]

Here are my numbers:
I own 3 vehicles, a 2013 Leaf, a 2004 Honda Pilot, and a '91 Dodge Dakota pickup.
I record all my fuel costs. Just finished my 3rd quarter fuel cost analysis.
March 12 thru Oct 12 2012 (pre-Leaf, gasoline only): $3,690
Same period this year, post-Leaf: $351 (gasoline only)
Net fuel savings = $3,339 - $142 = $3,197
Leaf miles as of today =8,012
Avg miles per kilowatt hour = 4.5
Total kilowatt hours consumed plus line losses = 1940 KWh
Electricity here costs $.073/kWh
Total Leaf power cost = $141.62 for 8,012 miles
That's about 1.8 cents per mile for "fuel".
Now factor in the cost of the Leaf. Lease pmt + lease costs is $416/month times 9 months = $3,744
So, all things considered, I come out just about even. But I get to drive a new, excellent car every day, pretty much for free. Now I have 10kw solar panels, so I don't even pay for "juice" now.
Bottom line, as all other posters point out, cost of electricity is insignificant in all of this.

 

[ZeroDino]

I have a $500 deposit on a '13 Leaf S (no QC) and was hoping to pick it up this weekend. I called PG&E for due diligence and was shocked at what I was told.

She said my current history shows a bill of $135/mo in winter (which actually sounds a bit high to me) and I can expect it to go up to $275/mo with the regular residential rate which is the plan I am on now. I plan to drive 50 miles/day and charge at home after 11pm with 240.

In order to get the rate to go down I will have to switch plans to use the one with the different tiers for peak/off peak usage. Only peak usage is from 2-9pm and partial peak is 9-11pm. And I work from home from 2- 10pm, so if I switch I think my bill will go up anyway. And I cannot afford to install a separate meter.

I thought an added bene of switching to EVC was fuel savings? Of course I'd love to switch anyways, but I cannot afford to without this. Is it just because I live in expensive SouthBay, Cali that I won't see any fuel savings?

Any SouthBayers using residential plans that have a different experience?

 

[planet4ever]

I thought an added bene of switching to EVC was fuel savings? Of course I'd love to switch anyways, but I cannot afford to without this. Is it just because I live in expensive SouthBay, Cali that I won't see any fuel savings? Any SouthBayers using residential plans that have a different experience?

There are lots of LEAF drivers in the bay area, and northern California in general, and most of them have the same problem. PG&E covers most of the top half of the state, with the notable exception of Sacramento and a few cities with their own utilities (including Santa Clara in the South Bay). Use the Search link at the top of every forum page, near the right side of the page, then type PG&E into the Google search box near the top of that page.

You are right that there are major problems with the new EV rate schedules (both A and B) for many people, and the standard E-1 rate can also be deadly. For many of us the best solution was to put solar panels on our roofs and generate our own electricity. You don't have to generate everything you use, just enough to keep you out of the high tiers. That also gives you another option, the E-6 rate, which is better optimized for when the panels are putting out the most power.

For detailed discussion on all this I suggest you go to the PG&E threads, do a lot of reading, and then ask your questions there. There are also Solar threads with a huge amount of information on the various systems.

Ray