Chevrolet Bolt & Bolt EUV

[GetOffYourGas]

I would not buy an EV without heated seats, living in Syracuse NY. I get a lot of use out of them. Even then, though, it's still a luxury rather than necessary with a 60kWh battery. Cabin heat will not take as large of a percentage as it does out of my Leaf's 24kWh battery.

I fully understand why someone living in Phoenix, AZ would never use them, and wouldn't want to have to pay for them.

Heated seats don't have to be standard, but they should be an option unto themselves. They should not be bundled into a premium package (and that doesn't seem to be the case here).

I do wonder, however, whether GM should have made CCS standard. Even if the original owner never uses it, it will hurt the resale value. In 5 years from now, CCS is likely to be more common than it is today. Many second-hand buyers will be looking for it.

 

[RegGuheert]

There is plenty of room for Nissan and Tesla to also enter this space, but they will need to do it fairly soon and execute very well to gain a decent share of the market.

Excluding Nissan out of the equation, I find this statement to be very entertaining) Tesla would have to produce a lemon to have to worry about gain in market share let alone having a parallel segment of their own. Even with a delayed release the price disparity will have to be huge to make an impact. Let's see how pricing changes on the Volt once it is available nationwide.

Note that I said nothing about the quality of the product. What I said is that they need to execute very well. Tesla has reservations for a huge number of Model 3s. If they are unable to ramp up production very quickly, many those reservations will likely move on. Even if they meet their schedule and price, which they never have, they will lose some reservation holders to the Chevy Bolt.

But this is all good news, IMO. The BEV space now has multiple players and is growing rapidly. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at how defensive some of the Model 3 reservation holders have been in this thread.

 

[EVDRIVER]

There is plenty of room for Nissan and Tesla to also enter this space, but they will need to do it fairly soon and execute very well to gain a decent share of the market.

Excluding Nissan out of the equation, I find this statement to be very entertaining) Tesla would have to produce a lemon to have to worry about gain in market share let alone having a parallel segment of their own. Even with a delayed release the price disparity will have to be huge to make an impact. Let's see how pricing changes on the Volt once it is available nationwide.

Note that I said nothing about the quality of the product. What I said is that they need to execute very well. Tesla has reservations for a huge number of Model 3s. If they are unable to ramp up production very quickly, many those reservations will likely move on. Even if they meet their schedule and price, which they never have, they will lose some reservation holders to the Chevy Bolt.

But this is all good news, IMO. The BEV space now has multiple players and is growing rapidly. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at how defensive some of the Model 3 reservation holders have been in this thread.

It's not about quality, my joke is Tesla would have to fail to not blow them away. What Tesla will give up to the Volt will be Moot, I don't see them in the same universe for sales. Even if Tesla drops 3/4 of their reservations.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

Excluding Nissan out of the equation, I find this statement to be very entertaining) Tesla would have to produce a lemon to have to worry about gain in market share let alone having a parallel segment of their own. Even with a delayed release the price disparity will have to be huge to make an impact. Let's see how pricing changes on the Volt once it is available nationwide.

Note that I said nothing about the quality of the product. What I said is that they need to execute very well. Tesla has reservations for a huge number of Model 3s. If they are unable to ramp up production very quickly, many those reservations will likely move on. Even if they meet their schedule and price, which they never have, they will lose some reservation holders to the Chevy Bolt.

But this is all good news, IMO. The BEV space now has multiple players and is growing rapidly. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at how defensive some of the Model 3 reservation holders have been in this thread.

It's not about quality, my joke is Tesla would have to fail to not blow them away. What Tesla will give up to the Volt will be Moot, I don't see them in the same universe for sales. Even if Tesla drops 3/4 of their reservations.

Twice you incorrectly referred to the Bolt and the Volt. If someone as in tune with the EV market as you is getting this wrong, the typical consumer has no chance. More evidence that the Bolt was a terrible name for GM to choose.

 

[edatoakrun]

So they made it have poor highway range as a compromise to shoot themselves in the foot.

If the EPA combined range is 238 miles, and the EPA highway/combined mpge is 110/119, then the EPA highway range is 220 miles. I wouldn't call that a poor highway range.

Cheers, Wayne

As reported below, EPA rated range of the Bolt:

255-mile range rating in the city....217.4 miles highway

http://insideevs.com/detailed-range-ratings-for-the-chevrolet-bolt-ev-255-miles-city/

For unknown reasons, Tesla S and X models have always done relatively poorly on the EPA "city" cycle, with smaller percentage MPG e and range increases over the EPA "highway" cycle than most other BEVs.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bymodel/2015_Tesla_Model_S.shtml

It will be interesting to see the C & H results for the Tesla 3, if and when available.

 

[GRA]

<snip> For unknown reasons, Tesla S and X models have always done relatively poorly on the EPA "city" cycle, with smaller percentage MPG e and range increases over the EPA "highway" cycle than most other BEVs. <snip>

The reason is simple, they're heavy but cleaner, versus lighter but dirtier. City range is all about weight (and rolling resistance), and highway range about drag (and rolling resistance). The relative differences between city and highway MPGe and ranges are what you'd expect to see in each case.

 

[RegGuheert]

But this is all good news, IMO. The BEV space now has multiple players and is growing rapidly. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at how defensive some of the Model 3 reservation holders have been in this thread.

It's not about quality, my joke is Tesla would have to fail to not blow them away. What Tesla will give up to the Volt will be Moot, I don't see them in the same universe for sales. Even if Tesla drops 3/4 of their reservations.

I suspect most of the reservation holders for the Tesla Model S are more price sensitive than those who held reservations for the Models S and X, perhaps significantly so. As such, when Elon Musk comes back with hat in hand to say that he can't build the Model 3 for 35,000, but instead will charge 45,000 for the base model, I expect the level of defections will be very high. (BTW, the cars that Elon musk showed at the Model 3 rollout was NOT a $35,000 car. More like a $50,000 car. It really was a bit of bait-and-swap, IMO.) Those defectors will simply take their $5000, go down the street and purchase a Chevy Bolt or Nissan LEAF instead.

Tesla can command a small price increase above the Chevy Bolt because of the advantage of their Supercharger network, but the limit for many people will likely be around a $5000 uplift.

 

[edatoakrun]

<snip> For unknown reasons, Tesla S and X models have always done relatively poorly on the EPA "city" cycle, with smaller percentage MPG e and range increases over the EPA "highway" cycle than most other BEVs. <snip>

The reason is simple, they're heavy but cleaner, versus lighter but dirtier...

I don't know exactly what you mean by "cleaner" or "dirtier", but the relative inefficiency of the X and S in the EPA city cycle seems to be far greater than can be explained by differences in air resistance and weight, alone.

The obvious suspect is less-efficient recovery of kinetic energy by Tesla's regenerative braking over the EPA city cycle.

 

[GRA]

<snip> For unknown reasons, Tesla S and X models have always done relatively poorly on the EPA "city" cycle, with smaller percentage MPG e and range increases over the EPA "highway" cycle than most other BEVs. <snip>

The reason is simple, they're heavy but cleaner, versus lighter but dirtier...

I don't know exactly what you mean by "cleaner" or "dirtier", but the relative inefficiency of the X and S in the EPA city cycle seems to be far greater than can be explained by differences in air resistance and weight, alone.

The obvious suspect is less-efficient recovery of kinetic energy by Tesla's regenerative braking over the EPA city cycle.

Drag, pure and simple. Other factors also contribute, but weight's the 800 lb. (more like 1,425 lb. in this case) gorilla for City MPGe: LEAF curb weight ca. 3,325 lb. (3,256-3,391), Model S curb weight ca. 4,750 lb. (4,608- 4,936).

 

[GRA]

As reported below, EPA rated range of the Bolt:

<snip> 217.4 miles highway

Well, seem to have pretty much nailed that one, not that it was a hard guess:

Comparing the Bolt to the Model S60 with its 210 mile EPA range, at 70 deg. and 70 mph the latter is credited by Tesla with 199 miles of range (to empty), and at 65 mph with 219 miles of range. I'm pretty confident that we can expect the draggier Bolt to get between 200 and 220 miles of range at a constant 65, flat ground/no wind/no HVAC use, and around 20 miles less at 70.

Although the EPA HWY cycle isn't a constant 65, it plus the US06 cycle usually give results fairly close to a constant 65 mph cruise. Figure 210+ for now, until someone tests one. Quite enough to be useful for shorter road trips.

 

[EVDRIVER]

But this is all good news, IMO. The BEV space now has multiple players and is growing rapidly. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised at how defensive some of the Model 3 reservation holders have been in this thread.

It's not about quality, my joke is Tesla would have to fail to not blow them away. What Tesla will give up to the Volt will be Moot, I don't see them in the same universe for sales. Even if Tesla drops 3/4 of their reservations.

I suspect most of the reservation holders for the Tesla Model S are more price sensitive than those who held reservations for the Models S and X, perhaps significantly so. As such, when Elon Musk comes back with hat in hand to say that he can't build the Model 3 for 35,000, but instead will charge 45,000 for the base model, I expect the level of defections will be very high. (BTW, the cars that Elon musk showed at the Model 3 rollout was NOT a $35,000 car. More like a $50,000 car. It really was a bit of bait-and-swap, IMO.) Those defectors will simply take their $5000, go down the street and purchase a Chevy Bolt or Nissan LEAF instead.

Tesla can command a small price increase above the Chevy Bolt because of the advantage of their Supercharger network, but the limit for many people will likely be around a $5000 uplift.

]


Bait and switch, But he also said most will be equipped at a 45K level. For those that defect at least 1-2 will learn about the car and buy it. I just don't see G< selling many Bolts in comparison until the drop the price. The curve will go up sharp and then drop.

 

[abasile]

Although the EPA HWY cycle isn't a constant 65, it plus the US06 cycle usually give results fairly close to a constant 65 mph cruise. Figure 210+ for now, until someone tests one. Quite enough to be useful for shorter road trips.

Agreed. However, I believe that for intercity trips on Interstate highways, highway range at 75+ mph is generally of greater interest to most drivers today. That is where the aerodynamics and faster Supercharging of the Model 3 will shine in comparison to the Bolt.

Still, the Bolt is great for what it is. Given that GM has indicated no interest in building an intercity fast charging network, maybe it's perfectly fitting that the design of the Bolt isn't optimized for high-speed highway travel. And in terms of EV designs, a large battery pack can overcome a multitude of sins. A production EV with a 60+ kWh battery for $30-$40K is just, wow. Back in April 2011 when I took delivery of my LEAF, I did not expect such progress to occur in only 5.5 years.

 

[Stoaty]

The Bolt would suit my needs perfectly as far as range goes. I just want an EV that will do at least 150 miles, anything more and I will probably be taking the old Camry anyway (about 4-5 times per year) since I usually need more space for people/gear. I will be taking a close look at it. If Leaf 2.0 doesn't have TMS it will be either the Bolt or (eventually, when available) the model 3.

 

[edatoakrun]

Washington Post review below is notable mostly for what is missing-any reference to DC charge capability.

The Chevy Bolt aims to dethrone Tesla. Here are our first impressions.

...Finding a place to charge the car was relatively straightforward, although it was disappointing to learn that you won't be able to search for charging stations right from the car's built-in tablet, at least at first. Googling for a charger led us a few blocks north to a local parking garage, where we pulled up to an empty spot and plugged in. For reference, a 120-volt home power outlet is capable of adding about four miles of driving range for every hour the car is plugged in. Plugging into higher-voltage outlets, such as a 240-volt charger that you will be able to buy at the dealership, can speed up the charging process. With that kind of charger, you'd be adding 25 miles to your range every hour...

How can the GM PR flacks let that sort of omission happen, unintentionally?

As to the rest of the Bolt design, I am decidedly unimpressed by the boring GM-generic styling.

The Bolt is overpriced, overweight, and is equipped with an inferior inefficient and complex battery thermal management system.

It is either a profoundly mediocre effort by GM, or perhaps just another passive-aggressive vehicle electrification effort as were the Spark E and Volt, intended mainly to maintain ICEV sales at high levels.

I hope LEAF Gen two is lot better than this, otherwise I'll probably be driving an Ioniq...

 

[EVDRIVER]

Washington Post review below is notable mostly for what is missing-any reference to DC charge capability.

The Chevy Bolt aims to dethrone Tesla. Here are our first impressions.

...Finding a place to charge the car was relatively straightforward, although it was disappointing to learn that you won't be able to search for charging stations right from the car's built-in tablet, at least at first. Googling for a charger led us a few blocks north to a local parking garage, where we pulled up to an empty spot and plugged in. For reference, a 120-volt home power outlet is capable of adding about four miles of driving range for every hour the car is plugged in. Plugging into higher-voltage outlets, such as a 240-volt charger that you will be able to buy at the dealership, can speed up the charging process. With that kind of charger, you'd be adding 25 miles to your range every hour...

How can the GM PR flacks let that sort of omission happen, unintentionally?

As to the rest of the Bolt design, I am decidedly unimpressed by the boring GM-generic styling.

The Bolt is overpriced, overweight, and is equipped with an inferior complex and inefficient battery thermal management system.

It is either a profoundly mediocre effort by GM, or perhaps just another passive-aggressive vehicle electrification effort as were the Spark E and Volt, intended mainly to maintain ICEV sales at high levels.

I hope LEAF Gen two is lot better than this, otherwise I'll probably be driving an Ioniq...

As much as I wanted this to be a good to great EV offering I have to agree with you, they messed it up. It is either crappy GM corporate culture or making it just good enough to pass. At least Nissan has the excuse of conservative Japanese corporate culture to explain their repeated mistakes. I was frankly more than surprised about the actual product delivered. Since Nissan saw the Bolt early it may have lit a fire under their ass but I seriously doubt it. My gut says it was a low-level effort as an overall product but it is GM. If you consider the EV-1 in comparison to time periods (battery tech excluded) it shows how poor the execution and design is on the Bolt. a large amount of excitement on the Bolt is simply based on the release date and fact it is the first 200 mile EV outside a Tesla. Otherwise, eh. This car will appeal to the older EV friendly crowd and some other groups.

 

[edatoakrun]

Those interested in the actual total and available capacity of the Bolt may want to follow this thread at the Bolt forum:

EPA Test Data released
http://www.mychevybolt.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4437&sid=1f3a455cbbeecd6975fac722be4e142a

This thread, P 80:

Title: 2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV first drive: [we drove] 240 miles in an electric car
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1106077_2017-chevrolet-bolt-ev-first-drive-240-miles-in-an-electric-car

....our Bolt EV delivered 4.1 miles per kilowatt-hour used. Over our 240 miles, we had used 58.7 kwh, or 97.8 percent of the total stated pack capacity of 60 kwh...

IMO the big news from this story, is that GM (from the dash display image) seems to be claiming ~60 kWh AVAILABLE capacity from the Bolt pack, out of what would be expected to be a significantly larger total capacity, of at least ~67 kWh....

A definitive answer may only be available after the AVTA (or another competent authority) actually tests Bolt packs and reports the results.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

there comes a point when the masses will come around to the EV option and these longer range EVs will bring all the fence sitters over or at least the ones who can afford to pay the near $40,000 price. Guessing GM with its leverage was able to negotiate a sweetheart deal for batteries but then will have to produce the volumes to merit the discount. When that does not happen (as it didn't with the Volt) the price will drop so the question of what to get because being the first on your block with a Bolt sounds like the worst financial move one could possibly make.

As far as options; I prefer the ala carte option as well but highly unlikely to have packages I would want simply because packages are the manufacturer's way of adding in things I do not want to pay for so its very much a double edged sword.

Well; GM has not had good lease options (could be changed, as I don't keep up with them) so the best bet is probably another lease.

Leasing from Kia requires a pretty hefty down payment costing considerably more money especially if you decided to go with a shorter 2 year lease but then again, its hard to say because when I select two year leases it say $986 a month over $247 a month for a 3 year which sounds like same out of pocket... so who knows?

***edit*** ok found out that Kia does not give you the tax credit as part of the lease on two year leases so essentially its 3 year or nothing...

GM doesn't (didn't) provide the full EV tax deduction which would cost thousands

So we are back to Nissan which does provide the full tax credit and has had a bit of a problem selling the cars they have.

So this is where we start. But as a returning customer, all of a sudden another batch of incentives are available which can take nearly another grand off the cost. rumors (confirmed by dealers) that 2017 S will have 30 kwh option tells me that leasing another 3 years is pretty much my only real choice here. I survived quite nicely with my 24 kwh car (drove 86 miles yesterday with no issues and yes my range was helped by congestion but trust me on this; congestion is a MUCH more reliable fact of life than even degradation...) so surviving with a 30 kwh car will open up several more "no stops required" locations. Problem is the mileage. I have 43,000 miles on my 45, 000 mile lease and 3 months to go... (even after pushing 16,000 miles to the Corolla and 21,000 miles to company cars...)

so the 30 kwh pack might introduce a new batch of financial issues for me...

 

[lorenfb]

Interesting perspective on Tesla versus the Bolt:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007604-bolt-goes-far-elon-musk#alt1

One of its key points:

Everybody seems surprised that the Bolt is getting so much range out of its 60kWh battery. The Model S has a Cd of just 0.24 and the Model 3 is targeting 0.21, whereas the Bolt is a brick at 0.32. However, the Bolt's range was estimated according to EPA methods, same as for the Model S and, soon enough, for the Model 3. The Bolt came up being more efficient than the Model S both in city driving and in highway driving (the main surprise is here, given the aerodynamics). The explanation, beyond weight, is probably found in a critical difference: the Bolt uses a permanent magnet motor vs the Model S induction motor. Permanent magnet motors are intrinsically more efficient as well as produce less heat (both are linked).

Aside: The Volt uses an induction motor versus the Leaf with a PM motor.

 

[edatoakrun]

Interesting perspective on Tesla versus the Bolt:

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007604-bolt-goes-far-elon-musk#alt1

One of its key points:

Everybody seems surprised that the Bolt is getting so much range out of its 60kWh battery...

...

I repeat (see my post above) that most reports so far suggest the Bolt actually has greater than ~60 kWh total capacity, probably more like ~60 kwh available.

...it's a near certainty that when the final car is unveiled, it will have a base EPA range of 240 miles or more. This, in turn, will require a 60kWh or larger battery, instead of the smaller battery which Tesla was certainly thinking of fielding up until now....

http://seekingalpha.com/article/4007604-bolt-goes-far-elon-musk#alt1

I agree Musk's ego may require a longer range from the Tesla 3 than any competitor, so when and if it ever hits the market, it likely will carry an EPA range (base or option) of greater than 238 miles.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I agree Musk's ego may require a longer range from the Tesla 3 than any competitor, so when and if it ever hits the market, it likely will carry an EPA range (base or option) of greater than 238 miles.

The way I see this working out is a base range of less than 238 miles, but for the same price as a Bolt ($37,495), you can buy a larger battery with more range than the Bolt. Especially highway range, due to aerodynamics. And Tesla isn't ashamed of advertising all sorts of odd conditions for range. They don't just stick to the EPA number.