Considering lease for commute from Las Vegas. Will this wor

[brad11140]

Hey everyone. I have been scouring the posts but cannot find one that really answers my question.I have been interested in this car for quite some time and currently I am putting some serious thought into it.

Ok heres the situation. I work at the Ivanpah Solar Electric Plant. If any of you have been on I-15 just outside Primm and wonder what those tall towers are off the side of the road, thats where I work. I live in Las Vegas and the commute is right around 49 miles from my door step to my parking spot at the plant. Myself and 3 co-workers are considering leasing a LEAF and rotating driving responsibilities. The plant is going to put in a L2 charger at some point but I work 12 hour shifts and the thought is that we will plug into 110 when we get here and just let it slow charge for 12 hours.

Here are my concerns. The more research I do the more worried I get about the battery. I am fairly confident we can make it there and back using the charging method I described above, but if I lose 30-40% of battery life than the range could become an issue a few years down the line.

Weather is also a concern. Its pretty hot here in the summer and it can get a little chilly in the winter (we have had below freezing conditions, but nothing that lasts). So from what I understand, the temperature swings could limit battery life as well.

How does this car handle in stop and go conditions. Sunday nights are a nightmare if you are heading south on I-15 out of Vegas. Seems like battery power would be ok since your only really putting a load on the battery when you are driving. If its stop and go how does battery life fare.

Do you guys/gals think this is to risky?

 

[Berlino]

Even if you lose 30% by the time your lease is up, you should still have enough range, since you can charge at work.

I could be wrong, though. I don't know how much energy the AC consumes in Vegas heat and if you need to drive 70 mph you will get less range than I do.

It sounds like you'll be over-mileage on a standard lease. I'm not sure how much it will cost to increase the limit.

Try to have the charging stations at work installed somewhere in the shade.

 

[cwerdna]

Please look at Tony's range chart at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14026" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. He's also done range tests like http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=273048" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=11682" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Also look at the approx # of miles added per hour at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=301972#p301972" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I've been to Vegas a few times in the summer before and it's blazing hot. You will likely have battery degradation almost as bad as Phoenicians (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9694" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

You really planning to lease or buy? If you buy, there is the 5 year/60K mile battery capacity warranty where if you get down to 8 capacity bars (4 lost), they'll replace it with one with at least 9 capacity bars. After that, there's http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13331" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

FWIW, I've stayed at the hotels at Primm a few times...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Simple answers:

1. Lease, don't buy. Don't even CONSIDER buying in these brutal hot areas.

2. 24 months... I would not consider 36 or 39 months in your situation (tons of miles in blistering desert heat).

3. Get the maximum mileage (15,000).

4. Don't even consider this without 240 volt L2 charging at your work.

5. Don't worry about the battery... you don't own it, who cares? It will make your commute both ways even with 30% degradation.

6. If you are driving 100 miles per day, 5 days a week, that is 2000 miles per month, or 24,000 per year and 48,000 over the 24 month lease. You will have to pay for 18,000 extra miles when you turn it in, so calculate that in your expenses.

7. Since this is a commuter car, you don't need the CHAdeMO quick charger or 6.6kW charger. Just get the cheapest LEAF-"S" in whatever color you want.

8. Enjoy getting in your precooled or preheated car every day after work!!!

 

[Berlino]

Silly of me to recommend the work L2 be installed in the shade when you work night shifts. Depending on your schedule, you can time the charging at work to take place when it's coolest.

At home, I hope you'll be able to park in a garage, preferably an air-conditioned one. The LEAF is a great car for some people, but in your case you may wish to look into EV's that have battery-cooling systems.

 

[garsh]

Its pretty hot here in the summer and it can get a little chilly in the winter (we have had below freezing conditions, but nothing that lasts). So from what I understand, the temperature swings could limit battery life as well.

From what I've read, heat is really bad for battery life. If you can keep the car in a cool garage during the day, that would help a lot.

Cold, on the other hand, doesn't appear affect battery *life*. It does, however, lower the *available range* on a charge. It's a short-term effect rather than a degredation. I've made a 60-mile (round-trip) commute in a sub-0°F snowstorm, so I don't think you'll have to worry about the cold in Vegas.

 

[WetEV]

Simple answers:

1. Lease, don't buy. Don't even CONSIDER buying in these brutal hot areas.

Mostly agree, due to risks. But not completely, as this is a more complex answer. Also, there is always lease and then buy, which sometimes makes sense, especially when you might be paying for lots of extra miles. And I suspect that the Leaf will not work in this situation.

Suppose you wanted a BEV for 4 people to commute 100 miles a day... Yes, a hybrid or gasser would be cheaper, used even cheaper still, but money isn't the only thing. What are the other options?

1) Ford Focus BEV: Back seat space might rule this one out, but does have TMS so battery life would be better. Limited volumes, more expensive, and has the "Stop Safely Now" issue... But sold nationwide.

2) Tesla... $$$

3) All of the compliance only cars. Some lease only, all not available nationwide: Fiat, Honda, Toyota, and many more...

If you had to buy one, I'd rule out 3) as you might not be able to (some are lease only) and even if you did support would be a problem. (2) would be cool, but a lot more expensive. (1) is about the only other choice, and might not work for comfort reasons. The Leaf might be the best choice, unless you could afford the Tesla.

Suppose you did buy a Leaf, Model S: Battery warrantee replacement seems likely, might be after 2 summers. If you bought now, in the fall, you might get a new battery in somewhat less than 2 years. If so, the replacement would likely last a similar amount of time. So you might end up with a 70% battery, 100k mile used car to sell after 4 years. If you bought in the spring, might get only 3 years on the initial plus replacement battery. The worst case would be just failing to get down to 70% before 50k miles (and this is why the lease option would be preferred).

Should go look at the battery life model carefully:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Download the spreadsheet and try some variations. Putting in 24,00 miles per year, 3.5 miles/kWh, 7 days per week in the Sun, looks like about a 2 year life. Shaded parking, 4 miles/kWh might get 3 year life. Note that you will be running a deep cycle on the battery, so this model will likely overestimate remaining capacity.


Cost per mile for the car would (purchase price - tax rebate - used car sale price + insurance + taxes + electricity + tires + ...) / (mileage on two batteries), and might be around $0.40 a mile, which isn't bad. Worst case is probably around $0.60. The battery lease option might open up and be reasonable, but don't count on this.

However, I think that 49 miles of freeway is probably beyond what you would expect to do in all conditions with a 70% battery for the Leaf. Snow, snow tires, rain, wind, cold will all reduce range. I'm sure you will get other opinions. But I think that by the time you get down to 70%, you will be hearing the Low Battery and even the Very Low Battery alarm on a fairly regular basis, and may need to stop mid trip for a charge at least some days...Is that an option? Doesn't look likely to me, from Plugshare.com. Not much charging available. No alternative, I don't like that.

 

[Boourns]

Simple answers:

1. Lease, don't buy. Don't even CONSIDER buying in these brutal hot areas.


6. If you are driving 100 miles per day, 5 days a week, that is 2000 miles per month, or 24,000 per year and 48,000 over the 24 month lease. You will have to pay for 18,000 extra miles when you turn it in, so calculate that in your expenses.

I think these factors should be your biggest considerations. I wouldn't buy a leaf in Las Vegas, and the max standard lease is 15,000 miles. 500 miles a week * 50 weeks (assuming you get two weeks of vacation AND all four of you take vacation at the same time) = 50,000 miles over 2 years. At $.15 per mile over you are looking at a $3000 mileage penalty once the lease is up. That is a significant amount of money.

Honestly, you may be better off with a diesel Jetta or some other fuel efficient ICE car.

 

[TonyWilliams]

At $.15 per mile over you are looking at a $3000 mileage penalty once the lease is up. That is a significant amount of money.

Honestly, you may be better off with a diesel Jetta or some other fuel efficient ICE car.

You can't precool a Jetta diesel everyday. That feature alone has some serious value in Las Vegas with several hot, sweaty guys in the car.

$3000 penalty is only $125 per month extra. How much is petrol in a Jetta for 2000 miles a month? 2000 / 40 = 50 gallons * $4 = $200. Bazinga!

That LEAF is still looking pretty good to me. BTW, any of the California compliance ZEV cars are available for a $500 shipping fee to Lost Wages, Nevada. The Rav4 EV is $0 down, $444 month, UNLIMITED MILES !!! Tons of room, and it can do this trip round trip without ANY charging at work.

Double Bazinga!!

 

[martyv]

I think we might be overlooking the fact that the op is planning to lease the car and three coworkers would be doing the same, meaning that they would share driving duties, so they won't be going over the 12k miles per year in the original lease... In this case, leasing the Leaf for two years makes perfect sense and would be a very comfortable car for this commute.

 

[Nubo]

I think we might be overlooking the fact that the op is planning to lease the car and three coworkers would be doing the same, meaning that they would share driving duties, so they won't be going over the 12k miles per year in the original lease... In this case, leasing the Leaf for two years makes perfect sense and would be a very comfortable car for this commute.

4 guys, 1 LEAF.

At least that's how I understood it.

 

[brad11140]

Simple answers:

1. Lease, don't buy. Don't even CONSIDER buying in these brutal hot areas.

Yes I am only considering a lease due to the fact that A) The technology in 2-3 years will be better and B) Battery life.


2. 24 months... I would not consider 36 or 39 months in your situation (tons of miles in blistering desert heat).

3. Get the maximum mileage (15,000).

Even driving the 14 days a month I am estimating about 16,464 miles per year and that does not include any running around in Vegas. So 15k is the only way to roll.

4. Don't even consider this without 240 volt L2 charging at your work.

Should be coming soon but using the charging option that comes with the vehicle on a 110 circuit for 12 hours while I am working should be adequate to get us back to Vegas.[

5. Don't worry about the battery... you don't own it, who cares? It will make your commute both ways even with 30% degradation.

6. If you are driving 100 miles per day, 5 days a week, that is 2000 miles per month, or 24,000 per year and 48,000 over the 24 month lease. You will have to pay for 18,000 extra miles when you turn it in, so calculate that in your expenses.

I do shift work so its not like I am commuting 5 days a week for a whole year. I work 14 days a month. 7 of those are day shift, 7 are night shifts.

7. Since this is a commuter car, you don't need the CHAdeMO quick charger or 6.6kW charger. Just get the cheapest LEAF-"S" in whatever color you want.

I do have concerns here. With the 6.6kw charger, doesent that shorten L2 charge time to like 4 hours. IF I get the base model with the 3.3kw charger, will that lengthen L2 charge times to 8-10 hours. And what would that do to 110V charging. Now my work is going to probably put in a L2 charger at some point but I dont know when that is. If I am juicing up using the 110V option and from Ive learned that takes 20 hours to fully charge the battery. Will the 3.3kw make 110 charging take even longer? I work a 12 hour shift. So if I throw it on a 110V slow charge for the duration of my shift that should recharge enough to get me back to Vegas. If that is extended at all it starts to get disconcerting.

8. Enjoy getting in your precooled or preheated car every day after work!!!

 

[brad11140]

I think we might be overlooking the fact that the op is planning to lease the car and three coworkers would be doing the same, meaning that they would share driving duties, so they won't be going over the 12k miles per year in the original lease... In this case, leasing the Leaf for two years makes perfect sense and would be a very comfortable car for this commute.

4 guys, 1 LEAF.

At least that's how I understood it.

Yes. 1 Leaf and 4 of us rotating driving responsibilities

 

[brad11140]

At $.15 per mile over you are looking at a $3000 mileage penalty once the lease is up. That is a significant amount of money.

Honestly, you may be better off with a diesel Jetta or some other fuel efficient ICE car.

You can't precool a Jetta diesel everyday. That feature alone has some serious value in Las Vegas with several hot, sweaty guys in the car.

$3000 penalty is only $125 per month extra. How much is petrol in a Jetta for 2000 miles a month? 2000 / 40 = 50 gallons * $4 = $200. Bazinga!

That LEAF is still looking pretty good to me. BTW, any of the California compliance ZEV cars are available for a $500 shipping fee to Lost Wages, Nevada. The Rav4 EV is $0 down, $444 month, UNLIMITED MILES !!! Tons of room, and it can do this trip round trip without ANY charging at work.

Double Bazinga!!

LOL. We have a shower here at work. So hopefully we arent dealing with a bunch of sweaty guys.

I guess I need to look into this more. I was not aware of a a RAV4 EV

 

[brad11140]

Its pretty hot here in the summer and it can get a little chilly in the winter (we have had below freezing conditions, but nothing that lasts). So from what I understand, the temperature swings could limit battery life as well.

From what I've read, heat is really bad for battery life. If you can keep the car in a cool garage during the day, that would help a lot.

Cold, on the other hand, doesn't appear affect battery *life*. It does, however, lower the *available range* on a charge. It's a short-term effect rather than a degredation. I've made a 60-mile (round-trip) commute in a sub-0°F snowstorm, so I don't think you'll have to worry about the cold in Vegas.

I am hoping they will let me pull it right into the maintenance shop to let it charge. If not there are some shady areas I can park. The ultimate vision here is to have covered parking with solar panels for building power and a EV charging station. So we will see.

 

[brad11140]

Simple answers:

1. Lease, don't buy. Don't even CONSIDER buying in these brutal hot areas.

Mostly agree, due to risks. But not completely, as this is a more complex answer. Also, there is always lease and then buy, which sometimes makes sense, especially when you might be paying for lots of extra miles. And I suspect that the Leaf will not work in this situation.

Suppose you wanted a BEV for 4 people to commute 100 miles a day... Yes, a hybrid or gasser would be cheaper, used even cheaper still, but money isn't the only thing. What are the other options?

1) Ford Focus BEV: Back seat space might rule this one out, but does have TMS so battery life would be better. Limited volumes, more expensive, and has the "Stop Safely Now" issue... But sold nationwide.

2) Tesla... $$$

3) All of the compliance only cars. Some lease only, all not available nationwide: Fiat, Honda, Toyota, and many more...

If you had to buy one, I'd rule out 3) as you might not be able to (some are lease only) and even if you did support would be a problem. (2) would be cool, but a lot more expensive. (1) is about the only other choice, and might not work for comfort reasons. The Leaf might be the best choice, unless you could afford the Tesla.

Suppose you did buy a Leaf, Model S: Battery warrantee replacement seems likely, might be after 2 summers. If you bought now, in the fall, you might get a new battery in somewhat less than 2 years. If so, the replacement would likely last a similar amount of time. So you might end up with a 70% battery, 100k mile used car to sell after 4 years. If you bought in the spring, might get only 3 years on the initial plus replacement battery. The worst case would be just failing to get down to 70% before 50k miles (and this is why the lease option would be preferred).

Should go look at the battery life model carefully:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Download the spreadsheet and try some variations. Putting in 24,00 miles per year, 3.5 miles/kWh, 7 days per week in the Sun, looks like about a 2 year life. Shaded parking, 4 miles/kWh might get 3 year life. Note that you will be running a deep cycle on the battery, so this model will likely overestimate remaining capacity.


Cost per mile for the car would (purchase price - tax rebate - used car sale price + insurance + taxes + electricity + tires + ...) / (mileage on two batteries), and might be around $0.40 a mile, which isn't bad. Worst case is probably around $0.60. The battery lease option might open up and be reasonable, but don't count on this.

However, I think that 49 miles of freeway is probably beyond what you would expect to do in all conditions with a 70% battery for the Leaf. Snow, snow tires, rain, wind, cold will all reduce range. I'm sure you will get other opinions. But I think that by the time you get down to 70%, you will be hearing the Low Battery and even the Very Low Battery alarm on a fairly regular basis, and may need to stop mid trip for a charge at least some days...Is that an option? Doesn't look likely to me, from Plugshare.com. Not much charging available. No alternative, I don't like that.

Wish I could afford the Tesla, but thats not happening.

There is a carging station at Whiskey Petes in Primm (which is 6 miles from the plant), but the last thing 4 guys who have just pulled a 12 hour shift want to do is hang around Primm for a couple hours charging. So my charging option at work needs to be solid.

Ill check out that battery life model. Thank you!

 

[RonDawg]

With the 6.6kw charger, doesent that shorten L2 charge time to like 4 hours. IF I get the base model with the 3.3kw charger, will that lengthen L2 charge times to 8-10 hours. And what would that do to 110V charging. Now my work is going to probably put in a L2 charger at some point but I dont know when that is. If I am juicing up using the 110V option and from Ive learned that takes 20 hours to fully charge the battery. Will the 3.3kw make 110 charging take even longer? I work a 12 hour shift. So if I throw it on a 110V slow charge for the duration of my shift that should recharge enough to get me back to Vegas. If that is extended at all it starts to get disconcerting.

When charging at 120 volts, it does not matter whether you have the 3.3 or 6.6 kW charger; the included EVSE only is capable of supplying a maximum of 12 amps at 120 volts (1.44 kW). You only notice the speed difference at 240 volt charging, and only if the particular EVSE will supply the necessary amperage. I plugged into a Blink charger last week and it was painfully slow even for my 3.3kw Leaf charger.

You mention later that you might be allowed to park it in the mechanics shop. If there is a 240 volt outlet that you can use, there is good news for you: a company called EVSE Upgrade can take your stock EVSE and make it capable of accepting 240 volt current, up to 20 amps. While that's only 4.8 kW, that's much, much faster than 120 volt charging. And the upgrade is only about $300, though you may have to spring for some adapters for around $25 or so depending on the type of 240 volt receptacle being used.

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but one tip is to keep your speed down. High speeds eat up range at a fast rate. If you can take local roads to work, and stay off the interstate, you will have less range anxiety. This will be important as the months go on and the battery starts to degrade to due to the temperature extremes.

 

[Berlino]

If you do go with the LEAF, I agree with the posters who suggest the "S." However, the RAV4 EV is a good choice and will surely open up management's and coworker's eyes to the potential of EV's.

Hope you eventually get the solar-powered charging stations, that will be awesome.

 

[brad11140]

With the 6.6kw charger, doesent that shorten L2 charge time to like 4 hours. IF I get the base model with the 3.3kw charger, will that lengthen L2 charge times to 8-10 hours. And what would that do to 110V charging. Now my work is going to probably put in a L2 charger at some point but I dont know when that is. If I am juicing up using the 110V option and from Ive learned that takes 20 hours to fully charge the battery. Will the 3.3kw make 110 charging take even longer? I work a 12 hour shift. So if I throw it on a 110V slow charge for the duration of my shift that should recharge enough to get me back to Vegas. If that is extended at all it starts to get disconcerting.

When charging at 120 volts, it does not matter whether you have the 3.3 or 6.6 kW charger; the included EVSE only is capable of supplying a maximum of 12 amps at 120 volts (1.44 kW). You only notice the speed difference at 240 volt charging, and only if the particular EVSE will supply the necessary amperage. I plugged into a Blink charger last week and it was painfully slow even for my 3.3kw Leaf charger.

You mention later that you might be allowed to park it in the mechanics shop. If there is a 240 volt outlet that you can use, there is good news for you: a company called EVSE Upgrade can take your stock EVSE and make it capable of accepting 240 volt current, up to 20 amps. While that's only 4.8 kW, that's much, much faster than 120 volt charging. And the upgrade is only about $300, though you may have to spring for some adapters for around $25 or so depending on the type of 240 volt receptacle being used.

I don't know if it was mentioned earlier, but one tip is to keep your speed down. High speeds eat up range at a fast rate. If you can take local roads to work, and stay off the interstate, you will have less range anxiety. This will be important as the months go on and the battery starts to degrade to due to the temperature extremes.

Good to know! I was assuming that you needed the faster charger even for the 120V option. So the basic logic here is that 4 hours is nice, but if you are putting in the garage for the night it doesent really matter if it takes 4 hours or 8 hours. Just as long as its good to go by the time you need it again. So I need to evaluate that aspect of it. When my wife is running around on my off days getting groceries and depletes the battery, we will have to wait more than 4 hours to fully charge it again.

Just takes some planning.

Im sure there are 240V outlets in the shop. Ill have to go look. We havent even comissioned that part of the building yet.

 

[brad11140]

If you do go with the LEAF, I agree with the posters who suggest the "S." However, the RAV4 EV is a good choice and will surely open up management's and coworker's eyes to the potential of EV's.

Hope you eventually get the solar-powered charging stations, that will be awesome.

RAV4 sounds better money wise, but its only available in California. I own a house in California still so I could probably swing it.