DC Fast Charging $$$$ Fee Poll

[TonyWilliams]

I think the start-up costs of DC are the biggest hurdle right now. Hopefully they drop substantially.

Good luck

No, upfront costs are not the biggest issue. If a DC charger were given to me for FREE, fully installed and operational, it would still have difficulty operating with any of the price models.

If folks won't pay the ongoing costs, then the up front costs didn't matter if they were free.

 

[bigtlb]

I just used a DC Fast charger over the weekend. It was to extend my trip. I was OK with the $7 per 30 minute charge rate that 350 Green is charging in the Chicagoland area.

So I guess B & F.

 

[KeiJidosha]

Whatever the cost is at the charger where I am when I need it, if less than a flat tow.

The tow is free from Nissan. So, you'd pay nothing? (Choice A)

Why would I make Nissan pay for my poor planning? Choice H (though higher cost = less frequent usage)

 

[Nubo]

Ok. However, even airlines throw out a fuel surcharge, and I don't care much about the price of jet fuel.

Yes, but the airlines nickel and dime you (or $100 you!) with surcharges because the price listings that bring customers to them are based on fare price. So they are highly motivated to shift revenue from fares to these other categories.

Now that I think about it a little more though in terms of "bringing in customers", and your premise of ubiquitous stations, I guess there really does need to be a simple number that you can put on a big sign visible from a mile down the freeway. So I'm back to H:

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

option N

i would want a per minute rate based on longevity with a $2 penalty for every 3 minutes the car remained plugged in but not charging

1-5 minutes .50/min

6-10 minutes .45/min

11-15 minutes .40/min

16+ minutes .35/min

the per minute rates can be adjusted to suit market competition.

 

[davewill]

H and I. are entirely reasonably priced.
J. would work, but since I don't expect to charge to 100% often, it isn't my fav.
M. is acceptable, but not ideal.

The monthly rates don't appeal to me because I expect to patronize multiple providers. In the case of "I", I'm concerned that I could be paying by the minute for an unknown rate, since you are spreading the load out among multiple users. I'd hate to pay for 20 minutes of charge, but not get actually get much charge. Have you calculated what the amount of time is likely to be needed to perform the proverbial "charge to 80%" in the demand charge avoidance scenario?

Tony, you know part of your problem is that you never said "What is the MAX you would pay" which is what I think you intended.

 

[abasile]

For occasional use, i.e. no more than once per month or so, $15 per QC session is an amount we would pay.

However, for regular (weekly) use, the biggest competition for us would be L2, not the Prius. At $15 per QC session, we would be more careful to plan our drives so as to get better miles/kWh, maximize our use of free or lower-cost L1 and L2, and minimize QC.

$10 per session would be more palatable, and $5 would be (unrealistically) awesome.

 

[TonyWilliams]

In the case of "I", I'm concerned that I could be paying by the minute for an unknown rate, since you are spreading the load out among multiple users. I'd hate to pay for 20 minutes of charge, but not get actually get much charge. Have you calculated what the amount of time is likely to be needed to perform the proverbial "charge to 80%" in the demand charge avoidance scenario?

I. I will pay 25 cents per minute at a reduced charge speed. Since no demand fee is triggered below 20-30kW, my total costs would be a ten minute charge at $2.50 and a twenty minute charge is $5. A full charge from zero to 100% would take 90 minutes (20kW max rate to LEAF) and cost $22.50.

Ok, so the proverbial LBW to 80% that Nissan claims will take 25 minutes will probably take 45 minutes and therefore cost $11.25.

Tony, you know part of your problem is that you never said "What is the MAX you would pay" which is what I think you intended.

No, I'm not looking for max. Most charges won't be a full charge, and will probably be "just enough" to get home / next stop, so max would rarely fit in the equation. I'm looking for the threshold to enter the game mostly, and it keeps gravitating to the Prius.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Here's a simple spreadsheet of some of the pricing models:

                      F        G        H        I        J      O       M
                  33/min    33+$5    50/min   25/min   25+$5   33/min  $7-$15
                    48kW     48kW     48kW     20kW     20kW    20kW    48kW

10 min charge      $3.30    $8.30   $5.00     $2.50     $7.50   $3.30  $7-$15
20 min charge      $6.60   $11.60  $10.00     $5.00    $10.00   $6.60  $7-$15
LBW to 80%         $7.85   $12.85  $12.50    $12.50    $17.50  $14.85  $7-&15
Turtle to 100%     $16.50  $21.50  $25.00    $25.00    $30.00  $29.70  $14-$30

 

[LEAFfan]

Although I am not in california, I would expect to pay B or F
In all honesty, its a super convience to charge at DC charger, and they do cost alot. $10-$15 is what I would expect to pay, although more like $10-$12 to be honest. To me its worth the cost if you need the charge.

How much is a lot? Maybe you didn't know that Nissan is coming out soon with a less than $10K DCQC. Blinks cost around $60-80K.

 

[Aeolus]

I would be closer to something like this

A $3.00 flat fee plus .20 per minute off-peak.

A $4.00 flat fee plus .30 per minute on-peak

A $5.00 flat fee plus .40 per minute during super on-peak events.

 

[ht2]

For occasional use, i.e. no more than once per month or so, $15 per QC session is an amount we would pay.

+1.
I only use occasionally. For now convenience is more important then price.
When there are more then two QC stations then I will pick the cheapest station.

 

[walterbays]

Acceptable: FGHIJM
Unacceptable: That no QC exists within range at any price

Suppose we set out on the freeway in either a Leaf, a 50 MPG Prius, or an average 21 MPG mid-size car. Gas is $4.30/gallon. Home electricity is $0.10/KWh. Leaf has a usable battery capacity of 21 KWh, of which we're willing to use 19 KWh. At the destination we'll stay long enough to recharge fully at L2 for the return. We'll drive at 65 MPH, getting 3.6 mi/KWh in the Leaf. (I've seen better than this, but let's conservatively use the numbers in Tony's range chart.) En route recharging will be from 30% to 80% charge, taking 15 minutes at an NRG station at a cost of $7, or taking 30 minutes at Tony's Option J reduced power station at a cost of $12.50.

If we drive only 68 miles then we arrive with 2 KWh remaining and need no quick charge. With a single quick charge we add 10.5 KWh of energy, or 38 miles of range. So with one quick charge we can go 106 miles. With 4 quick charges we can go 220 miles.

Which car we'd take on the trip and which we'd leave in the garage depends on how far we're going, how much the quick charge costs, and how quick is the quick charge. Rounding one-way trip cost to nearest dollar and to nearest quarter hour, trips are summarized in the table below. The first column shows the trip distance. The second column shows the cost in money and time to make the trip in a Prius. The third column (AMS) is an average mid-size ICE car. The fourth is a Leaf, recharging as needed at NRG quick charge stations. The fifth is a Leaf, recharging as needed at Tony's Option J stations.

Miles  Prius     AMS      NRG       TJ
 68      $5      $13       $2       $2
        1hr      1hr      1hr      1hr

106     $10      $23       $9      $14
       1.75hr   1.75hr    2hr     2.25hr

220     $23      $54      $30      $42
       3.5hr    3.5hr    4.5hr    5.5hr

68 mi - 0 QC's

Drive the Leaf
no-brainer

106 mi - 1 QC at NRG

Drive the Leaf, leave the Prius at home
cheaper, with one short refreshment break

106 mi - 1 half-quick charge at Tony's option J

Drive the Leaf, leave the ICE at home
cheaper, with one medium refreshment break

Drive the Leaf, leave the Prius at home
Costs $4 more and you've got to take one medium break
but you get to drive the Leaf!

220 mi - 4 QC at NRG

Maybe drive the Leaf, leave the ICE at home
Leaf is $12 less expensive, but 1 hr longer trip

Drive the Prius, leave the Leaf at home
Leaf is $7 more expensive and takes 1 hour longer

220 mi - 4 half-quick charge at Tony's option J

Drive the ICE, leave the Leaf at home
ICE is $12 more expensive but saves 2 hours

 

[planet4ever]

H: 50 cents per minute
M: minimum $7, up to $15 during peak time

I wouldn't use it very frequently, but when I need it I would be willing to pay quite a bit. In fact, my criterion might be "less than a tank of gasoline"! Sorry, Tony, but I personally have no interest in reduced charge speed. When I need it, I expect to be sitting there waiting for it, and I don't want to wait any longer than necessary. (For the same reason, I would never charge to 100% at a QC.)

Ray

 

[Boomer23]

First choice: F
Second choice: H

If I'm quick charging, I need to get somewhere and I don't want to wait around any longer than I have to, so I want full power. I want to pay a per minute (or per kWh, I don't care) charge, not a flat fee because I want to pay for what I need, even if it's only 15 minutes of charging.

 

[TonyWilliams]

H: 50 cents per minute
M: minimum $7, up to $15 during peak time

I wouldn't use it very frequently, but when I need it I would be willing to pay quite a bit. In fact, my criterion might be "less than a tank of gasoline"! Sorry, Tony, but I personally have no interest in reduced charge speed. When I need it, I expect to be sitting there waiting for it, and I don't want to wait any longer than necessary. (For the same reason, I would never charge to 100% at a QC.)

Ray

Sure, I want the fastest speed, too. But I don't want to go bankrupt providing it

By far, however, it appears folks are more adverse to a cost greater than "the Prius" than to waiting more time for the charge. 20kW is still many multiples faster than either 3.3 or 6.6 charging. Even twice as fast as Tesla S and Rav4's 10kW charger.

Please quantify "quite a bit" and "tank of gas". I had to amend "M" to reflect 30 minute charge limit at $7-$15 per charge, therefore a full charge would be up to $30.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

there would be times where a reduced QC if the savings is significant would be better. it all depends if you are just taking a bathroom break or getting food. if its the latter, i would go with the slower. if its the former, i would most likely do my business and go back and wait at the car since i am talking 5 minutes or less (that would be less than half the time spent waiting for others take longer)

 

[abasile]

I acknowledge that it does create a challenge if many of us only use QC units for longer, less frequent trips and for "emergencies". The lack of critical mass certainly makes it tough for a QC to generate a sufficient revenue stream to stay turned on.

One idea for generous folks who hope to "seed" a QC network with their own money might be to keep QC fees low for the general LEAF-driving public, and establish "endowments" for the units. If folks are willing to donate to an environmental-oriented nonprofit that among other things builds/maintains trails in their local area, why not donate to a QC monthly maintenance fund in order to help further the local growth of EVs, cut foreign oil dependency and reduce carbon emissions? Calling it a "donation" makes it much easier to stomach, IMHO. Non-profit status would be ideal, but not required. I can hear it now: "Sponsor a QC!"

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It seems we have lost the concept of service here.why do we pay $3a hour to park when our driveway is free?

Why do w pay $2 for water when wee can get it for than s penny pet bottle at home?

We pay those prices because its a hassles to walk an extra 6 blocks out pack our own water.

At the same time Ihave chosen to save $50,000 by not buying a Tesla so paying 15-20 cents a mile to charge away from home and I believe that most "normal" EVers who have not been spoiled by free public charging will feel the samee way

 

[TonyWilliams]

One idea for generous folks who hope to "seed" a QC network with their own money might be to keep QC fees low for the general LEAF-driving public, and establish "endowments" for the units.!"

I started with this idea last October, when I presented it at our San Diego meet. Read through the posts and find ONE that even mentions supporting (financially) a charging infrastructure (besides mine). One issue does come up over and over; if it costs more, "I'll-just-drive-the-Prius".

The kind of money that would need to be raised is insane. I'm going to suggest that the demographic that drives the LEAF is not going to be that source of capital. Even if all the infrastructure were paid for by wealthy and generous folks, I don't think you'll find the general LEAF population will even pay enough to maintain ongoing costs. Which means the cost gets higher per charge unit, instead of cheaper. Failure is inevitable, if it even would start.

In the future, when gas is $8 or $10, the Prius will get 75mpg or more, so guess what will happen? Toyota got that one right.

It's the worst of all business models. A less than enthusiastic buyer of a product that costs more than its competition in actual cost (charging at home, take the Prius, even free charging services like Mitsubishi in Cypress, California).

Certainly, I would entertain folks who have money to burn for such a project. Can I start the bidding at $10,000 ? :mrgreen: When we have 50,000 LEAFs in California, the dynamics may change, but not for raising money this way. Coulomb just got $47 million in venture capital, but I'm going to guess they won't be looking to just "break even" on their investment.