Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

[SageBrush]

Maybe the utility should expand that source.

Believe it or not, even PNM has caught on.

 

[golfcart]

We were not ready to go "off the grid" given the high cost of sufficiently sized battery backup and the large variability of sun where we live. Due to these considerations, we specifically sized our PV system to offset our driving and keep us out of the expensive "higher tier" (over 800kWh in a month) electricity rates but not large enough to ever be net producers for a month. I look at it the same way i look at taxes, anything that lets you avoid your highest rate bracket will give you the best return.

I think it is difficult at this point, if you have net metering available, to argue against at least a small system on your roof in most locations unless you have to replace your roof in the next 10 years, think they are ugly, or you just don't have the cash to do it. Our installed cost, through a local co-op, was $2.12/kW (before federal incentives) and we're offsetting the purchase of $.115/kWh electricity (near national average) from the utility with that system. That puts us right in the 10 year payback period in pretty average conditions (for the United States) in terms of solar potential (https://www.energy.gov/maps/solar-energy-potential).

Given the 10 year break even, 25 year warranty on the system, and research showing that homes with panels sell for more than equivalent homes without panels (https://www.zillow.com/research/solar-panels-house-sell-more-23798/) it is as good an investment as I think one could hope for right now. An additional bonus is that a PV system allows you to produce "clean" power using what is essentially wasted space on your roof and I think that has value as well.

 

[SageBrush]

Our installed cost, through a local co-op, was $2.12/kW (before federal incentives) and we're offsetting the purchase of $.115/kWh electricity (near national average) from the utility with that system. That puts us right in the 10 year payback period in pretty average conditions (for the United States) in terms of solar potential (https://www.energy.gov/maps/solar-energy-potential).

11.5 cents a kWh is your high tier rate ?

 

[golfcart]

Our installed cost, through a local co-op, was $2.12/kW (before federal incentives) and we're offsetting the purchase of $.115/kWh electricity (near national average) from the utility with that system. That puts us right in the 10 year payback period in pretty average conditions (for the United States) in terms of solar potential (https://www.energy.gov/maps/solar-energy-potential).

11.5 cents a kWh is your high tier rate ?

Not exactly, it is really the average cost of the electricity we haven't purchased since installing the system. I calculate this by taking the difference between our actual bill and a hypothetical bill assuming our solar production didn't exist using a bill calculator spreadsheet that the utility provides.

This seemed like the best way to figure it out since the actual rate we pay depends on time of year, usage tier, and a whole bunch of convoluted taxes, fees, riders, and surcharges. It becomes a big clusterf*ck of a thing to keep track of when all I am really concerned with is net cost.

We tend to offset more expensive electricity in the summer but cheaper electricity in the winter because of the seasonal rate structure. Overall I have determined that the average cost of the electricity we would have purchased, without the PV system, is roughly 11.5c/kWh.

 

[Oilpan4]

The electrical coop only pays 7 cents a kwh until my generation equals consumption. It's the same as a 1kwh for 1kwh swap over the billing period. (There's no kwh bank or anything like that)
Then if my monthy production exceeds monthy demand I only get paid 3 cents a kwh.
That doesn't mean I get 7 cents a kwh until my total bill goes to 0.
I get 7 cents per kwh only to replace what I pull off the power grid. Then when or if I produce more kwh than I consume I pay back the $25 surcharge at 3 cents a kwh to completely 0 out my power bill.
So if I can 0 out my total consumption, generate an addition 833kwh at 3 cents per kwh to 0 out my standard $25 with or with out solar surcharge, then even after my bill goes to $0 they will continue to pay me 3 cents per kwh straight to my bank account.
So no, each kwh is not worth 9.9 cents.

Let's say I use 500kwh per month.
That bill would be $25 surcharge plus $35 worth of consumption for a total bill of $60.
That would make my overall rate 12 cents per kwh.

Let's say next months my bill is 500kwh again, I put up enough solar to produce 500kwh. My bill is still $25, because of the surcharge.
Let's say next month my bill is for 500kwh again. But install more solar panels and make 1,000kwh. My bill is still $10.

Let's say I use 500kwh again. I install even more solar panels and now produce 1,333kwh.
My bill goes to $0
It took 1,333kwh to $0 out what started as a $60 power bill. That makes my average generation worth about 4.5 cents a kwh, not 9.9 cents per kwh.

Let's say the month after that I use 500kwh again, install more solar panels and produce 1,666kwh.
Now the power company pays me $10.

It's not rocket science.

You
erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.

This is only true if he can avoid the monthly surcharge by going solar. Ie: If he plans to grid disconnect (in which case, his prices will be MUCH higher as batteries are $$$$$). If he remains connected to the grid, the $25 surcharge should be excluded from the kWh calculation, since he'll still have to pay it with solar. This means that 7 cents a kWh is correct.

At the last home and garden show both local Solar companies were there. They were offering a 6kw system for $17,000 after other people's money was applied.

I don't know your area, but that's high in my area. A good quote in my area would be around 2.95c/kWh for a 6kw system, installed, which comes out to $17,700 BEFORE the federal tax credit ($12.4k after other people's money).

I want to pay more like $3,000 to $4,000 for 6kw.

Cool? I want lots of things too. But that's not realistic. Parts alone for such a system are around $8,000 ($5,600 after other people's money). Then you have to add on labor, permitting, and other costs.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891564/wholesale-solar/complete-systems/6-kw-grid-tied-solar-system-with-solaredge-and-16-mission-solar-375-watt-panels

If you utilize used parts and do the install yourself, you may be able to hit 4k. Until then, you'll be paying utility rates for electricity. But even if you did the $5,600 and installed it yourself, your payback would be very very fast.

There is no additional coop charge for installing grid tie solar. Unlike xcel energy in town.
I was am going to get used 300w poly panels and second hand inverter.
The only thing I have to get permitted plus installed by an electrician with a contractor license is where the cogen meter ties into the house main panel, a manual disconnect and I don't know how much that's going to cost.
I have box full of used manual disconnects so shouldn't have to pay for that. The cogen meter base is its own configuration so I know don't have one of those.
The only things I'm buying retail are the superstrut, metal roof mounts, nuts, bolts, washers, MC4 connectors and other little things.
Even the wire wire and conduit all came from the scrap yard.

I'm not going off grid unless I can score massive amounts of battery capacity for cheap, on the order of 50 to 100kwh.

A 20 year break even point is a trap for suckers. Chances are the inverter is not going to last even 10 years.
I believe this is where the cheap panels come from. Some buys an over priced roof top solar system, gets it installed, everything is going great for several years then the inverter burns out, a new one is several grand because there is no warranty left or even with the warranty prorate then that bumps out the pay back time to eternity. So the home owner tells the solar company to rip that junk off the roof and get rid of it.
If my inverter dies I will find another used one for 1/6 to 1/10 the cost of a new one. So what if it only lasts half as long as a new one.

 

[golfcart]

A 20 year break even point is a trap for suckers. Chances are the inverter is not going to last even 10 years.

What kind of warranty period are you seen on inverters? Solar Edge gave us 12 years and we could extend it to 20 or 25 for (what I would consider) a reasonable fee if you think it is worth doing...

 

[Oilpan4]

There's almost as many warranties as there are inverter lines.
So if the inverter quits at 11 years into the 12 year warranty do they give you another one and pay to install it?

 

[golfcart]

They will repair, replace, or give a credit towards the purchase of a new one as far as I know there are no labor costs included.

It's not perfect but it's nice to have some coverage over that long a period.

 

[SageBrush]

It's not rocket science.

Indeed it is not, but you still do not understand.
The pay-off time for a PV install is calculated from the avoided cost.
Your avoided costs are the per kWh charges (whatever they may be), and can include the "base" kWh rate, taxes, and assorted per kWh fees.

Post a bill for help.

 

[Oilpan4]

I didn't get scammed into thinking a 15 year to eternity payback is a good deal.
So it looks like I'm doing fine.

 

[smkettner]

My 5 year payback came and went 2 years ago.

 

[SageBrush]

My 5 year payback came and went 2 years ago.

You must be feeling the stress of of only having some 23 years left of free electricity :mrgreen:

 

[golfcart]

Some places are definitely more lucrative than others for panels. My in-laws in Honolulu had about a 2 year break even between the State tax credit, federal tax credit, property tax exemption, 300 sunny days a year and $.33 / kWh electricity rate.

 

[SageBrush]

A 20 year break even point is a trap for suckers.

It is not, when the alternative is paying utility rates until death.

Imagine two opportunities, A and B
Both cost the same, but 'A' pollutes much more.

Which do you choose ?

--------
Your post sounds like you are patting yourself on the back for waiting, but you have not considered all the utility payments you have made instead. You have not considered all the pollution you now have to live with, and the pollution you added that the world now has. In short, your powers of arithmetic are .... wanting. But that has been obvious for a while.

 

[golfcart]

Imagine two opportunities, A and B
Both cost the same, but 'A' pollutes much more.

Which do you choose ?

This is basically how I sold it to my wife. Even if it ends up being a break-even proposition and we pollute much less it is still a net good. The fact that we can most likely make money on the thing and hedge against rising utility costs is really an added bonus.

 

[Lothsahn]

My solar installation resulted in a drop of $20/mth (compared to my electric bill) on a 7 year note. After that 7 years, my electricity will be nearly free (inverter replacement cost only).

I also feel tremendously scammed.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Imagine two opportunities, A and B
Both cost the same, but 'A' pollutes much more.

Which do you choose ?

I might choose B but without an economic advantage everyone around me will choose A, because it's easier and there is no motivation. I would argue that even if the cents per kwh is the same B really does cost more because I have to expend time and effort to do A and also take risks, eg that expected payoffs don't materialize, I move, etc.

Find a way to make B really easy and also offer substantial economic advantage over A, then you will see the scales tip.

 

[WetEV]

Find a way to make B really easy and also offer substantial economic advantage over A, then you will see the scales tip.

Traveled paths get easier.

 

[SageBrush]

around me will choose A, because it's easier and there is no motivation.

Do you breathe ?
Eat ?
Drink water ?
Want health for yourself and your children ?

That is what reduced pollution means. How is that not motivation ?

 

[smkettner]

My 5 year payback came and went 2 years ago.

You must be feeling the stress of of only having some 23 years left of free electricity :mrgreen:

Never read a solar panel wearing out. Just going to fade away slowly. s/b at 80% capacity in 30 years. I may not even live that long. As better panels are available I think many will get replaced before the warranty is run out. Efficiency continues to climb, cost continues to drop.