E85 to E100 - Anyone using Ethanol?

[AndyH]

Anyone using E85 in a flex- or non-flex fuel vehicle? How about 'pure' ethanol? Is it even available in your area?

 

[ksnogas2112]

AFAIK there is one fueling station in town that sells E-85 (Olathe, KS, 'burb of kcmo). So there is not enough demand even though I see plenty of flex fuel capable vehicles around town. They are much more popular in the corn belts in IA/NE/SD or out in western KS.

AFAIK there are no cars designed to run on pure ethanol.

I'm not a big fan of the E-85 concept. The fuel to corn to fuel ratio just isn't efficient enough to be more than a concept. Switchgrass, that might be a better solution. I think biodiesel is a much better solution to investigate.


2 cents and a complimentary pick axe to poke holes in the argument.

 

[TomT]

Even if it was available readily here, I'd avoid it like the plague. There are simply too many issues with it.

Anyone using E85 in a flex- or non-flex fuel vehicle? How about 'pure' ethanol? Is it even available in your area?

 

[toasty]

http://gas2.org/2010/03/08/brazils-10-millionth-ethanol-flex-fuel-vehicle-hits-the-road/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[toasty]

Panoramic view of the Costa Pinto Production Plant located in Piracicaba, São Paulo state. This industrial plan is set up to produce sugar, ethanol fuel (both anhydrous and hydrous), industrial grade ethanol, and alcohol for beverages.

The foreground shows the receiving operation of the sugarcane harvest, immediately followed by the mill process, and in the right side of the background is located the destillation facility where ethanol is produced. This plant produces the electricity it needs from baggasse residuals from sugar cane left over by the milling process, and it sells the surplus electricity to public utilities.

 

[toasty]

to answer OP question, i have used E85 in a ford ranger, and a s10 (both flexfuel models) in the past, and a few flexfuel marked rental cars... but there is only 10 stations in my city.


and now the flex fuel is almost the same cost as regular gas (or maybe 10c gallon cheaper), so when you take into account the 15/30% loss in fuel economy, its not worth it.

so i only use it to refill a return rental car (if marked flexfuel) etc.

 

[AndyH]

I'm on my third tank of "E50" in a non-flexfuel Ranger and am working up to E85 over the next few tanks. E85 is about 50 cents less expensive per gallon here and there are plenty of stations available. So far I've not seen a fuel economy drop. I have oil analysis test kits that'll be used later.

It appears that the energy balance is actually quite positive for even our corn ethanol, and I like the fact that it's close to carbon neutral and cuts gasoline use.

Production of corn-ethanol is energy efficient, in that it yields 34 percent more energy than it takes to produce it, including growing the corn, harvesting it, transporting it, and distilling it into ethanol.

http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/AF/265.pdf

Summary of Argonne study - energy balance:
http://gaia.pge.utexas.edu/BiofuelQA/Materials/03_28_05ArgonneNatlLabEthanolStudy.pdf

There appears to be a growing number of small-scale producers/co-ops that are able to stay closer to the 'leading edge' of enzymes and processes. At least one group here in Texas are working a demonstration project where cattails are grown to clean farm/ranch/sewage treatment effluent and then processed into ethanol. They're processing cellulose, starch, and sugars from the plants using enzymes and yeasts. Yields are in the neighborhood of 7000 gallons of ethanol per acre. (Compared to about 400 gallons from an acre of corn.)
http://www.waterc3.com/
http://www.fapri.missouri.edu/outreach/publications/2006/biofuelconversions.pdf

The view of E85 pump numbers from within the small-scale ethanol community seems to be very similar to our thoughts on public EVSE. There are simply too few vehicles on the road - and the petroleum industry lobbying and disinformation keeps more people from using alcohol and electricity.

"Alcohol Can Be a Gas"
http://www.permaculture.com/

I see a still in my future...

 

[Smidge204]

I find it difficult to believe you're not not seeing a mileage drop; Ethanol only has 70% the energy of gasoline per gallon. Maybe at E50 the difference is still small (I'd expect E50 to have 85% the energy per gallon, so it's puzzling you haven't noticed ANY reduction...)

I'm still against growing food crops (especially corn) for fuel, or using arable land and fresh water for that purpose at all. Cellulosic ethanol + treating effluent water I'm all for, though!
=Smidge=

 

[SolPower]

Not in the leaf. Even the Chevy Volt doesn't use Ethanol.

Oh, yea I guess do use Ethanol in rental cars when traveling in Ethanol country. When in Rome do as the Romans do.

 

[Nubo]

Anyone using Ethanol?

That is a loaded question.

 

[Smidge204]

Anyone using Ethanol?

That is a loaded question.

...and the question isn't the only thing that's loaded, is it?

=Smidge=

 

[AndyH]

Anyone using Ethanol?

That is a loaded question.

:lol: Hey - answer if/as you wish!

 

[AndyH]

I find it difficult to believe you're not not seeing a mileage drop; Ethanol only has 70% the energy of gasoline per gallon. Maybe at E50 the difference is still small (I'd expect E50 to have 85% the energy per gallon, so it's puzzling you haven't noticed ANY reduction...)

I was a bit surprised as well. There should be a drop, but right now it appears lost in the Scangauge noise. I don't care, though, as I'm willing to take the hit to get off as much gas as possible. The electric motorcycle still gets most of the miles - but not when I'm bringing plywood and 2x12s home. :lol:

I'm still against growing food crops (especially corn) for fuel, or using arable land and fresh water for that purpose at all.

I agree. I'm starting to see the problem from a different direction, though, as it appears that only about 6% of the corn we grow is 'food' for humans - most of the corn grown is for cattle (and HFCS...). The distillers grain from ethanol production is a much better food for critters - ethanol uses the sugar and starch while the distillers grain provides the cattle with fat, fiber, and protein. The message I'm used to seeing is "food or fuel" yet the reality appears that we can have food AND fuel from the same acre of land even with corn.

Cellulosic ethanol + treating effluent water I'm all for, though!
=Smidge=

Roger that! I was surprised to find that the homebrewers/farm scale/local scale folks were actively using different enzymes for starch to sugar conversion, and other enzymes for celulose to starch/sugar conversion. There's a guy in the middle of the country using grass clippings from local lawn services as his base stock, while others are using old newspapers and cardboard from the landfill. Others are hitting grocery stores, bakeries, and donut shops for old bread. How cool is that?

I wish I had room for a new toy:
http://www.allardresearch.com/portable_labs.html

 

[Herm]

I was a bit surprised as well. There should be a drop, but right now it appears lost in the Scangauge noise. I don't care, though, as I'm willing to take the hit to get off as much gas as possible. The electric motorcycle still gets most of the miles - but not when I'm bringing plywood and 2x12s home. :lol:

The high octane of E85 will allow higher timing settings in your Ranger, if its set up for that.. that increases efficiency by quite a bit.. It usually takes a while for the computer to readjust the timing to benefit from it (a couple of tanks?), there is no ethanol sensor in the system, it just listens for pinging and adjusts the timing accordingly. I know of some people that actually get a mileage increase from using E85, but that is not the normal case.. usually turbo charged modern cars benefit the most.

The thing about corn is that the farmers are growing extra corn to make ethanol, otherwise the price of corn would drop too much and they would just not grow it. Cheap US corn devastates local farmers in many third world countries.

It takes one gallon of diesel to make 21 gallons of pure ethanol, the rest of the energy comes from sunlight, coal and natural gas. Think of corn ethanol as a CTL and GTL process.

 

[AndyH]

I was a bit surprised as well. There should be a drop, but right now it appears lost in the Scangauge noise. I don't care, though, as I'm willing to take the hit to get off as much gas as possible. The electric motorcycle still gets most of the miles - but not when I'm bringing plywood and 2x12s home. :lol:

The high octane of E85 will allow higher timing settings in your Ranger, if its set up for that.. that increases efficiency by quite a bit.. It usually takes a while for the computer to readjust the timing to benefit from it (a couple of tanks?), there is no ethanol sensor in the system, it just listens for pinging and adjusts the timing accordingly. I know of some people that actually get a mileage increase from using E85, but that is not the normal case.. usually turbo charged modern cars benefit the most.

Apparently there are a couple of chip tuners 'out there' that'll allow one to tweak timing and injection volumes. It's only part of the solution unless there's a turbo or one raises compression.

There's a great overview of engine control and alcohol here if you're interested:
http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/ice.pdf

The thing about corn is that the farmers are growing extra corn to make ethanol, otherwise the price of corn would drop too much and they would just not grow it.

Not sure about this. It seems our entire ag system is one of "grow more come hell or high water - even if we lose money doing it." Big ag - and the ADMs that exist to convert corn to HFCS - wants cheap corn even if it kills farmers. I haven't yet found anything that suggests anyone except farmers wants corn prices to rise. Have you?

Cheap US corn devastates local farmers in many third world countries.

Agreed - as long as we're talking about dumping that cheap corn on other countries disguised as 'food aid'...

It takes one gallon of diesel to make 21 gallons of pure ethanol, the rest of the energy comes from sunlight, coal and natural gas. Think of corn ethanol as a CTL and GTL process.

Yuk. The ethanol we can use to completely replace gasoline (and in many cases diesel) is grown using organic/permaculture/sustainable practices and is self fueling - no chem fertilizers, insecticides/pesticides, diesel, coal, or NG required.

 

[Herm]

Yuk. The ethanol we can use to completely replace gasoline (and in many cases diesel) is grown using organic/permaculture/sustainable practices and is self fueling - no chem fertilizers, insecticides/pesticides, diesel, coal, or NG required.

Its unlikely.. ammonia fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides are made from NG, we could also fuel the trucks and combine tractors with NG or clean coal derived fuels. We could also grow genetically enhanced oilseed crops, and directly fuel the tractors from that with little processing. Rapeseed and canola oil as an example.

Eventually we will synthesize fuels out of CO2 extracted from air, using a fusion reactor, in 50 years, maybe.

 

[AndyH]

Yuk. The ethanol we can use to completely replace gasoline (and in many cases diesel) is grown using organic/permaculture/sustainable practices and is self fueling - no chem fertilizers, insecticides/pesticides, diesel, coal, or NG required.

Its unlikely.. ammonia fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides are made from NG, we could also fuel the trucks and combine tractors with NG or clean coal derived fuels. We could also grow genetically enhanced oilseed crops, and directly fuel the tractors from that with little processing. Rapeseed and canola oil as an example.

Eventually we will synthesize fuels out of CO2 extracted from air, using a fusion reactor, in 50 years, maybe.

If you're smoking something good, at least OFFER to share? :lol:

I've tried multiple times to point some to at least LOOK at permaculture - and each time someone inserts the old "Why NG and Poisons from the Cold War are Good For US" video tape (in Beta, no less!) and presses 'Play.' So here's the deal - as easily-digestible as I can serve it:

From 1971 to 1991:

On Cape Cod, intensively planted vegetables were grown on raised beds. Two year's of testing showed that 1/10 acre can provide, for 10 people, one year's supply of mixed vegetables (3 servings a day – root crop, cooked vegetable, and salad greens.)

With NO chemical fertilizers and no herbacides or pesticides of any type.
Source: New Alchemy Institute's Agriculture Summary: http://www.thegreencenter.net/pdf/naiagr.pdf

"Our Farm" - a community supported agriculture farm in the SF Bay area, had yields as high as 100,000 pounds per acre - with no tractor or chemicals, with half the acreage on a 35° slope. This was a permaculture operation that in nine years grew increasing harvests while also improving the land and developing deep soil.

The ONLY reason people use chemical ag processes is because they're afraid to do anything else - because they only know how to manage industrial farm methods. And because the ag chemical salespeople are so deeply entrenched in the system.

So - it's not only VERY LIKELY, but it's BEEN DONE and it's CONTINUED TO BE DONE without chemicals for more than 40 years - and organic methods have proven to outperform chemical methods and genetically modified 'frankenseeds' routinely.

You'll forgive me if I completely and totally overlook the utter BS about 'clean coal' in any form.

We had ethanol on every farm in the country before we had gasoline anywhere - and there's no reason we cannot do it again. And it should be MUCH easier now since there are so few farms by comparison.

 

[Herm]

The ONLY reason people use chemical ag processes is because they're afraid to do anything else - because they only know how to manage industrial farm methods. And because the ag chemical salespeople are so deeply entrenched in the system.

You sure its not because it saves labor?.. there is a reason for industrial farming methods. I have no issues with genetically modified crops, synthetic fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides.. I trust the farmers to know what they are doing since many of them go to school to learn how to do it, plus it is their land and to their interest to preserve it.

 

[ksnogas2112]

It would be really funny if they ended up finding the hemp was the easiest and most efficient way to produce ethanol gas.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Herm]

I would not be surprised..