Early Adopter Mistake - Running on Empty

[Leafer77]

One thing I didn't see anyone ask about, but I think is worth mentioning is about my car pool buddy who bought his own Leaf. He has a similar commute as I do, but he drives alittle faster than I do. He's currently at 9 bars and just under 50,000 miles. I'm guessing he'll hit 4 bars and qualify for the warranty, since he hit 9 bars several months ago at just over 40,000 miles.

 

[cwerdna]

I was mostly going off the marketing information I was previously given. All the documents that I received and other online information was suggesting around 100 miles at the time. I have copies of the marketing pamplets and documents. It also didn't help at the time that the salesman pressured me on of the fact that other people had put their deposits down already and would happily buy the car. Remember, this was back in May 2011.

Yeah, the 100 mile BS was still going on in 2013! I started a thread about that http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. To top it off, in mid-2013, a Nissan European exec went on camera saying the Leaf's range is now up to 200 km (124 miles): http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13264&start=30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. :roll:

 

[kubel]

Just putting a few battery capacity warranties out there:

NISSAN:
60 Months
60,000 Miles
(Effectively 48 months at 15,000 miles per year)
66.25%

KIA:
120 Months
100,000 Miles
(Effectively 80 months at 15,000 miles per year)
70%

TESLA:
96 Months
125,000 Miles (or more)
(Effectively 96 months at 15,000 miles per year)
70%

 

[Valdemar]

Anyone has connections in LA Times? They might like this story. It feels right about time the battery issues get some publicity.

 

[TimLee]

... I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity ...

You need to get LEAF Spy Pro.
I drove a 2011 for two 1/2 years without it.
If you are routinely hitting LBW, it is an essential tool to be able to sanely drive a low capacity LEAF.

 

[Valdemar]

... I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity ...

You need to get LEAF Spy Pro.
I drove a 2011 for two 1/2 years without it.
If you are routinely hitting LBW, it is an essential tool to be able to sanely drive a low capacity LEAF.

Yup, I'm hitting VLBW almost daily and not even sweating it.

 

[RegGuheert]

Yup, I'm hitting VLBW almost daily and not even sweating it.

Do you know the %SOC at which you normally hit VLBW?

 

[mbender]

I believe I read in another thread that the last long bar at the GOM disappears at almost exactly 1kWh remaining. I haven't double-checked this yet with LeafSpy, but it's been close enough for my purposes so far. Just an additional and useful indicator to help before you get LeafSpy. 3-5 miles remaining at that point, depending on all the usual conditions -- and with all the usual caveats.

... I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity ...

You need to get LEAF Spy Pro.
I drove a 2011 for two 1/2 years without it.
If you are routinely hitting LBW, it is an essential tool to be able to sanely drive a low capacity LEAF.

Yup, I'm hitting VLBW almost daily and not even sweating it.

 

[Valdemar]

Yup, I'm hitting VLBW almost daily and not even sweating it.

Do you know the %SOC at which you normally hit VLBW?

No, I'm not paying attention to the %SOC as much, just watching the Gids, it is pretty consistent how they drop between my selected way points which are freeway exits to quick chargers. If deviating from my normal route I'm using the Spy's range estimator to reserve if on a more or less flat terrain.

 

[Valdemar]

I believe I read in another thread that the last long bar at the GOM disappears at almost exactly 1kWh remaining. I haven't double-checked this yet with LeafSpy, but it's been close enough for my purposes so far. Just an additional and useful indicator to help before you get LeafSpy. 3-5 miles remaining at that point, depending on all the usual conditions -- and with all the usual caveats.

The last bar usually disappears when you hit VLBW at 25Gids and the GOM turns into ---, you have about 2kWh usable in the battery at that point. I wouldn't bet on being able to use all of it as cell balance is pretty bad at that point and you can hit turtle sooner than expected, but 1kWh is a safe bet.

 

[dhanson865]

... I don't have any special tools to measure my current capacity ...

You need to get LEAF Spy Pro.
I drove a 2011 for two 1/2 years without it.
If you are routinely hitting LBW, it is an essential tool to be able to sanely drive a low capacity LEAF.

Keep in mind you can use the free Leafspy Lite or Leafspy without doing the Leafspy Pro.

Leafspy Lite = $0
Leafspy = $10
Leafspy Pro = $15

I used Leafspy Lite for a 200 mile trip and several days of regular driving before I got the pay version. I might upgrade to the pro version when I get my next rims/tires and have to do the TPMS work. The fact that Turbo3 doesn't penalize you for upgrades and makes the free version work for most of what you absolutely need to buy a used car and test out your ODBII tool is very nice.

Information displayed by all versions (Lite, regular, and pro):

* Voltage of each of the 96 cell pairs (highlighted if shunt active)
* Minimum, average, maximum cell pair voltages
* Histogram of cell pair voltages
* Battery Temperature readings
* Battery AHr rating (this will decease with age and is an indication of remaining capacity)
* VIN
* Odometer
* Number of Quick Charge connections
* Number of L1/L2 Charge connections
* EVSE Max available amps
* EVSE voltage


Additional information displayed by Leaf Spy:
* Battery energy level in GIDs & kWh
* Resetable energy usage meter (Wh resolution)
* Graphic display of SOC, GIDs and DTE (Distance to Empty)
* Remaining distance meter (miles/km) to Event (Low Battery Warning, Very Low Battery Warning or Reserve) based on user selectable energy efficiency
* Graphic display of battery temperature with min, avg, max temperatures
* Tire Pressure of each of the four tires with low pressure warning and delta pressure warning alarm
* Ambient Temperature
* Logging function that records most data and optionally GPS location to a csv file that can be easily imported into excel.


You may want to purchase the "Pro" version which adds the ability to perform functions normally requiring a visit to the dealer.
* Change automatic door lock/unlock settings
* Read Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)
* Register Tire Positions (required after tire rotation or seasonal tire changes so your Leaf knows the correct location of each tire on the car)
* Future ability to reset selected DTCs

 

[dgpcolorado]

The last bar usually disappears when you hit VLBW at 25Gids and the GOM turns into ---, you have about 2kWh usable in the battery at that point. I wouldn't bet on being able to use all of it as cell-pair balance is pretty bad at that point and you can hit turtle sooner than expected, but 1kWh is a safe bet.

VLBW comes at 24 Gids and I've generally assumed that turtle could happen at around 7 Gids (never tried it but Tony's range chart shows 4 Gids). I'm uncomfortable going below ~10 Gids because the lowest voltage cell-pair shuts down the car and I'd rather not cut it close. So that's roughly 14 Gids x .08 kWh/Gid = 1.12 kWh usable at VLBW for me.

Others may be more comfortable going below 10 Gids.

 

[Valdemar]

The last bar usually disappears when you hit VLBW at 25Gids and the GOM turns into ---, you have about 2kWh usable in the battery at that point. I wouldn't bet on being able to use all of it as cell-pair balance is pretty bad at that point and you can hit turtle sooner than expected, but 1kWh is a safe bet.

VLBW comes at 24 Gids and I've generally assumed that turtle could happen at around 7 Gids (never tried it but Tony's range chart shows 4 Gids). I'm uncomfortable going below ~10 Gids because the lowest voltage cell-pair shuts down the car and I'd rather not cut it close. So that's roughly 14 Gids x .08 kWh/Gid = 1.12 kWh usable at VLBW for me.

Others may be more comfortable going below 10 Gids.

You're right, it is 24 Gids not 25. Ditto on 10 Gids, I'm usually back home from work at 15-30, for the time being anyway.

 

[TonyWilliams]

The Low Battery Warning and Very Low Battery warning are dependent on GIDs (a fixed unit of energy).

50 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 4kWh stored (about 3.3kWh usable)
25 GIDs * 80 wattHours = 2kWh stored (about 1.3kWh usable)

0.5kWh are unusable at the bottom of the charge (could be 4-7 GIDs).

Turtle is a value or lowest cell voltage.

SOC% is not a factor for these quite important landmarks.

Imagine if the battery were 80% degraded (only 20% of the energy remaining):

The SOC% at a full charge would be nearly 100%, however the LBW might come on almost right away !!!

 

[Valdemar]

Turtle is a value or lowest cell voltage.

Is there a known number for this voltage?

 

[TimLee]

Turtle is a value or lowest cell voltage.

Is there a known number for this voltage?

Turtle happens at 0.4 kWh remaining.
It is not tied to a GID value.
I have seen it three or four times and the GID values were different but LEAF Spy Pro always showed 0.4 kWh remaining.

The lowest cell voltage at Turtle will vary.
For my two capacity bar loss LEAF it has usually been around 3.15.

You will not go far after Turtle.
I hit Turtle about 500 feet from my driveway on steep grade last week.
LEAF would barely climb the hill with the 20 kW power limit.
Climbed the hill at less than 15 mph and did make it into the garage to charge.

Was afraid the LEAF would die on the hill.
When the lowest cell voltage hits 3.0 volts, the main contactor will open and you are dead in the water.
EDIT: This is incorrect. See followup post below.

The LEAF will not go into drive until you charge it back to a bit less than VLBW.
I think it requires 19 or 20 GID.

Note too that 12V remains powered after the high voltage contactor opens.
If you have left the LEAF with HVAC on like I did once in the garage, you will find the 12V battery drained all the way down to less than 7 volts.
You will have to jump the car to even get the LEAF to start charging with the EVSE.

Once you jump it and get it charging, the DC to DC will proceed to charge the 12V at a very stout 120 amps.

 

[EatsShootsandLeafs]

I'm completely at a loss, as to how I ended up where I am. I did my homework. I drove the car as it was designed, averaging 4.4kWH. I maintained it properly. The Nissan Leaf battery Capacity was supposed to last me at least 6 - 8 years for a 60 mile commute, but soon I might not even make a 30 mile commute.

I think your mistake was to assume that the battery wouldn't degrade at the rate it has. 6 years of 100% charge down to not much left, as required by your driving is in the ballpark of 1500+ complete cycle equivalents. Any lithium battery is going to suffer a massive capacity reduction by then.

Also

All the documents that I received and other online information was suggesting around 100 miles at the time.

Sure, they did, but all the reviews of the car demonstrated that in certain conditions it can be much less. When I bought my Leaf I went with real-world numbers posted by reviewers. Even those turned out to be optimistic at times, as I found that in really cold winter conditions with liberal use of heat I was able to hit turtle mode in under 40 miles from a full charge with no bars missing on my 2012 Leaf.

You have my sympathy, because now you're stuck in a car not worth very much (resale on these cars has plummeted) and it no longer suits your lifestyle. When I got my car a lease was the only way I could stomach the proposition, because worse case a lease can be terminated much earlier than selling a fairly new vehicle purchased new.

Ultimately i think the single biggest failure of this vehicle is its battery capacity. Nissan wanted to make an affordable EV and they did but it required a crucial sacrifice. An EV of reasonable range that is pallatable to most people would require 150-200% minimum of the Leaf's range. Most of the other manufacturers are doing the same thing, with Tesla being the only non-apologist. They realize that their cars are expensive, but other than long road trips there are no caveats to their ownership; no requiring charge stations at work, no driving around with gloves and a hat on in the winter because the heat takes up too much power, etc. No telling the wife she'll have to get the kids because you're stuck at home without a car that can make it out and back, etc.

 

[Valdemar]

^^^ It's 4 years and 920 cycles considering 73 mile range and 67000 miles, not 1500.

Also, on lease vs. buy, it is not really all that bad considering there were no lease deals back in 2011. You'd pay around $400/mo on a high mileage lease back then anyway, which turns out to be about the same as the cost to own for 4 years, so I don't really see what the drama is. Even if you have to drop a new battery in you'd still come out ahead as compared to 2 leases back to back over 6 or 7 years, barring any big additional out of pocket repair expenses.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Turtle is a value or lowest cell voltage.

Is there a known number for this voltage?

I don't actually remember (haven't had a LEAF for 3 years).

Turtle is specifically NOT tied to GID, and therefore not tied to capacity (like 0.4kWh).

The cells are top balanced, which means that they don't line up, voltage wise, at the bottom of the charge. If turtle were tied to capacity, and the cells unbalanced enough, the battery shutdown could happen prior to seeing turtle.

On Tesla powered cars, it's 2.5 volts at cutoff.

 

[tkdbrusco]

I'm not sure if anyone posted this in a prior reply but here's what I'd do. Keep paying on it and driving it for a bit longer. We still don't know the true facts behind the upcoming 30kwh battery, but there's a lot of rumors and leaks from dealers about it. There a strong possibility that they will sell that new "larger" pack for a reasonable price ($7000 or so). If this is the case, there are two new options on the table. (1) Buy a new "expanded range" battery pack. (2) You might even see an increase in the used leaf prices as a result of the pack being an aftermarket option.

Personally I would avoid selling it now or buying the 24kwh pack until I know how the above hashes out.